News from Gaza Part 2

Discussion in 'The Cesspool' started by S.A.M., Nov 20, 2008.

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  1. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    That is where the nation wide, integrated radar automatic counter battery artillery comes in. As I explained in the links, which you obviously have not read, “any living thing at the site of the rocket launch is shredded” within no more than 30 seconds after the first rocket launch.

    I want to kill the terrorist too but not by randomly shelling this densely populated area or the unavoidable "collateral damage." Back when the family pick-nicking on the beach was killed, it was not due to the routine target practice, which takes place almost daily, ACCORDING TO ISRAEL'S own PR presentation the next day. Two independent teams (one headed by an ex-USA army friendly fire investigator) concluded they were killed by an Israeli artillery shell.

    Please read the defensive plan before objecting to it.
     
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  3. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    No getting the facts correct does matter. When you fail to do this it is clear to all that you are just expressing a biased POV. i.e. you are one of the "Israel can do no wrong." supporters.
     
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  5. Huwy Secular Humanist Registered Senior Member

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    oooh no someone has expressed an opinion that has offended me!
    quick! find out if there is a way I can have them silenced!
     
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  7. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Well then post proof that what I posted isn't true, I didn't say that Jordan is a Palestinian Country, I stated that Jordan was the Palestinian Country, according to the Palestinian Mandate, as originally chartered by the League of Nations, who granted that Mandate to Great Britain.

    There were no countries such as Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, or Iraq, they were all provinces of the Ottoman Empire.

    Under the League of Nations Mandates those Countries were formed and promised independence along with Israel.

    Map showing the boundaries of the Jewish state, as outlined in the w:Faisal-Weizmann Agreement, superimposed on modern boundaries.

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    The Arabs throught the:

    They agreed to the map of Israel and the rest of the Middle East.

    Yes? what do you know of the Balfour Agreement, the Faisal-Weizmann Agreement, the League of Nations Mandates, or the British and French secret Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916 dividing the Middle East between their own spheres of influence, putting the screw to every body else.


    Yes, you are sorry.

    So is your comprehension of word definition.


    I will just have to take your word on that, until I have a usable URL to access the site, as to anything you might say on the information on the site,.....Well your reading comprehension and word definition are to say the least questionable.


    Reference the above map, this is the Lands promised to Israel and agreed to by the Arabs, who both were sold out by the French and British, look at the map of the Palestinian Mandate and tell me again who recieved most of the lands of the Palestinian Mandate, and then wanted even more,

    The land of Israel by the :Faisal-Weizmann Agreement,

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    [/IMG]

    The land that Israel Recieved in the U.N. 181 Resolution as reneged on by the British:

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    So actually if anything it is the Israels who are fighting to reclaing occupied lands from the Arabs, as the Arabs didn't live up to the Faisal-Weizmann Agreement.



    If you weren't so funny you would be pathetic.

    The land should belong to the Israelis, reference the Faisal-Weizmann Agreement.

    Now what due to the Palestinians?, wait not Palestinians, but Arabs, there was no thought of Palestinians or a Palsetinian State untill after the 1967 War, the Palestinians and the Palestinian State are a construct of the Arab States as a rational to continue a war they had lost.

    If anyone had a Due, it is the Israelis, sold out by the British, and French in the (Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916), Stabbed in the Back by the Arabs who failed to honor their Treaty with the Jews (Faisal-Weizmann Agreement).

    The Palestinians have not Their Due coming, they have done nothing to be deserving of Their Due, they have not kept one cease fire agreement, they have not spent one red cent on even trying to make a state, or build the infrastructure to create a Nation.

    They are where they are because they choose to be their, they do nothing to improve their own lot and cry like babies when things don't improve, because they do nothing to improve their lot.

    Right now the Palestinians are getting every thing they are Due, that Due is for 60 years of a war that they refuse to see is lost, that Due is for 60 years of Killing innocent Israelis, that Due it for Failing to Take Care of Their Own, buying weapons instead of building a country.
     
  8. disease Banned Banned

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    Arabs did not want an Israeli state in their backyard, and I'd say they resent its presence.

    Israel's existence is the problem, and the people it displaced, because they're pissed off about that.
     
  9. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Then explain the Faisal-Weizmann Agreement? and the agreed too map?
     
  10. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Ottoman aggression (i.e. Muslim aggression) resulted in the British taking over the land via the spoils of war. The British then handed over a large chunk of the land to the Jewish population.
     
  11. disease Banned Banned

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    None of you will ever understand the Arab view. The Ottomans sided with Germany's Kaiser in WW1, German aggression was responsible, their generals were in charge of Ottoman armies.
    The sheiks were trying to save what was left of their Empire, so was Britain.
     
  12. Challenger78 Valued Senior Member

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    Usual escalation after a series of assualts..

    Or maybe this is something more ?

    Israel vows war on Hamas in Gaza


    So..

    To avenge 4 Israeli's .. You kill 320 Palestinians.

    Great logic there.
     
  13. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    What you call the Jewish State, Faisal called the Palestine State. Faisal did not represent and was no friend of the Palestinians. Faisal was for himself, his family and the people of the Hejaz. The British doubled crossed both their client Faisal and their client Weizmann so the Faisal-Weizmann Agreement is largely irrelevant. The British just wanted to use Faisal and the Zionists and Faisal just wanted to use the British and the Zionists while the Zionists just wanted to use Faisal and the British. Lovely weren't they.

    Once the common enemy the Ottomans were defeated the three parties no longer had common interests.




    ..............................................................................................................
    3 January 1919

    His Royal Highness the Emir Feisal, representing and acting on behalf of the Arab Kingdom of Hedjaz, and Dr. Chaim Weizmann, representing and acting on behalf of the Zionist Organization, mindful of the racial kinship and ancient bonds existing between the Arabs and the Jewish people, and realizing that the surest means of working out the consummation of their natural aspirations is through the closest possible collaboration in the development of the Arab State and Palestine, and being desirous further of confirming the good understanding which exists between them, have agreed upon the following:

    Articles:

    Article I
    The Arab State and Palestine in all their relations and undertakings shall be controlled by the most cordial goodwill and understanding, and to this end Arab and Jewish duly accredited agents shall be established and maintained in the respective territories.

    Article II
    Immediately following the completion of the deliberations of the Peace Conference, the definite boundaries between the Arab State and Palestine shall be determined by a Commission to be agreed upon by the parties hereto.

    Article III
    In the establishment of the Constitution and Administration of Palestine, all such measures shall be adopted as will afford the fullest guarantees for carrying into effect the British Government’s Declaration of the 2nd of November, 1917.

    Article IV
    All necessary measures shall be taken to encourage and stimulate immigration of Jews into Palestine on a large scale, and as quickly as possible to settle Jewish immigrants upon the land through closer settlement and intensive cultivation of the soil. In taking such measures the Arab peasant and tenant farmers shall be protected in their rights and shall be assisted in forwarding their economic development.

    Article V
    No regulation or law shall be made prohibiting or interfering in any way with the free exercise of religion; and further, the free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference, shall forever be allowed. No religious test shall ever be required for the exercise of civil or political rights.

    Article VI
    The Mohammedan Holy Places shall be under Mohammedan control.

    Article VII
    The Zionist Organization proposes to send to Palestine a Commission of experts to make a survey of the economic possibilities of the country, and to report upon the best means for its development. The Zionist Organization will place the aforementioned Commission at the disposal of the Arab State for the purpose of a survey of the economic possibilities of the Arab State and to report upon the best means for its development. The Zionist Organization will use its best efforts to assist the Arab State in providing the means for developing the natural resources and economic possibilities thereof.

    Article VIII
    The parties hereto agree to act in complete accord and harmony on all matters embraced herein before the Peace Congress.

    Article IX
    Any matters of dispute which may arise between the contracting parties hall be referred to the British Government for arbitration.

    Given under our hand at London, England, the third day of January, one thousand nine hundred and nineteen
    Chaim Weizmann Feisal Ibn-Hussein

    Reservation by the Emir Feisal
    If the Arabs are established as I have asked in my manifesto of 4 January, addressed to the British Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, I will carry out what is written in this agreement. If changes are made, I cannot be answerable for failing to carry out this agreement.

    ..........................................................................................................

    The 1948 UN partition was unfair to the Palestinians. The Jews certainly deserved Israel as compensation for what Europeans had done to them but in no way did the Palestinians deserve to lose their homeland because of what Europeans had done to European Jews. (Not counting current Jordan which was a separate deal), the Palestinians were 70% of the population and owned 90% of the land so any partition that left them with 50% of the land being divided was pure bullshit which they had every right to resist militarily. There was nothing wise holy and virtuous about the UN then or now. The UN has no moral authority when it behaves immorally.

    There is evidence that the USA, the British and the Soviet Union pushed small UN member states to back the partition but I am not aware of evidence of what their motive was. My guess is that they wanted a viable reliably anti-German nation in Palestine to use as a base to deprive Germany access to Middle Eastern oil in the event that there would be a World War 3 fought by the allies against Germany. My reason for suspected this motive is the common knowledge that governments are always preparing to fight the previous war and my knowledge that the foreign policies of the British, USA and Soviet Union showed little sign of being directed by compassion in the decades prior to or the decades following World War 2 and therefore Allied compassion for the Jews and compassion or justice in general should be considered only as a Public Relations tools and should be given credence as genuine motivation for actions undertaken in Palestine or anywhere else by the Soviet Union's, the USA's or the UK's foreign policy apparatuses.

    Bottom line is that the Israel/Palestine situation sucks and is a tragedy and probably will continue to suck and be atragedy for the next 100 years.

    Israel can not afford to trust the Palestinians enough to give them anything that might half placate them. Any land that Israel gives the Palestinians will just give the Palestinians a stronger position to attack Israel. Any freedom of movement or control of their own borders given to the Palestinians will just give the Palestinians more ability to attack Israel.

    The forces in Israel that that want the Palestinians to leave most of the West bank seem to be in a stalemate with the forces with in Israel that want to let the Palestinians keep the West bank and hope that some time in the future Palestinians and Israelis can be peaceful neighbors.

    The USA solved this sort of problem with it's Native Americans by making it clear to the Native Americans that their choices were either complete surrender to the USA including a complete renunciation by the Native Americans of any hope they may have for justice or revenge or the the Native Americans could choose to keep seeking justice knowing full well that this would result in the USA completely exterminating them in a genocide.

    The Israeli version of this deal replaces the extermination card with harassment, occasional bombardment, and economic blockades. This package of threats that faces the Palestinians if they will not surrender and renounce seeking justice or revenge is just not nearly as compelling a motivation as the threat of genocide was in obtaining native American submission.

    Further more the world pays so much more lip service to human rights and justice today than it did when the USA was putting Native Americans in reservations on it's unwanted wastelands. All this lip service being paid to human rights and justice will just make it harder for the Palestinians to accept injustice. But there is no way around this; something has to give if there is to ever be peace. Either the Palestinians must accept injustice or more implausibly they must find a way to force the Israelis to give them justice. Neither case will happen soon. That is why the Bottom line is that the Israel/Palestine situation sucks and is a tragedy probably will continue to suck and be a tragedy for the next 100 years.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2008
  14. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    So nirakar, since the British screwed the Arabs, the Arabs are going to screw the Jew's, typically Arab, you can't do something to the British so you take it out on the Jews.

    Only this time the Jews fought back, and the Arabs got their ass's whipped royally.

    As to what happened in Americas past, how does that bear on what the Arabs are doing to the Jews of today?

    If the Jews of today weren't willing to fight, and dammed good at it, you Arabs would be doing the same thing about the Jewish Problem as Hitler tried to do in WWII, the Final Solution, as forwarded and supported by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, in concert with Hitler.


    Again, there was a agreement signed between Chaim Weizmann and Emir Faisal, son of the King of Hejaz, the that had nothing to do with the British, it was between them, and the Arabs reneged on their part of the Treaty.

    Emir Faisal, son of, Sayyid Hussein bin Ali, GCB (1854 — June 4, 1931) (حسین بن علی; Ḥusayn bin ‘Alī) who was the Sharif of Mecca, and Emir of Mecca from 1908 until 1917, when he proclaimed himself king of Hejaz, which received international recognition.

    Emir Faisal represented the King of Hejaz, the Sharif of Mecca, and Emir of Mecca, in the negotiations with full authority to sign the Agreement.

    It again was the Arabs who backed water on their word.

    So exactly how good is a Muslims word to the People of the Book?

    Even Mohammad Recognized the Jews as Israel, and Israel as the lands of the Jews.
     
  15. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Understanding a point of view is on relevant if those who hold that viewpoint aren't lobbing missiles into your yard.
     
  16. skywalker 3 @ T M 3 Registered Senior Member

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    Sad to see all the people supporting this brutal murder of innocent civilians of Palestine.. for most of people who are supporting those actions don't even think of palestinians as humans.. they are not even a head line news these days... how conviniently all the major news networks are ignoring these events... seems like death of Palestinians means nothing to any one. How interesting....and how sad.
     
  17. skywalker 3 @ T M 3 Registered Senior Member

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    994

    164 dead in Mumbai and the world news networks were on a rampage... 400 Palestanians dead and no one to blamed so far... all in the name self defence...

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  18. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    You just described Hamas to a T.
     
  19. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    The Americans (my Anglo ancestors) "fought back" and whipped the the Native Americans royally in a parallel situation. Religion entitled and sanctioned my ancestors to the Native American survivors of "King Philip's War" in New England into slavery in the Caribbean because god favors true believing Puritans over pagan savages.

    But "fought back" is subjective. The Palestinians and native Americans their ass's whipped royally when they fought back against people who were in the process of stealing their land.

    It is the less brutal reservation system used by American occupiers of the American West that more closely resembles the what is happening to the Palestinians. Sometimes the native Americans left the reservations and attacked. Can you blame them? Sometimes the Palestinians leave their reservations or fire rockets from their reservations can you blame them?

    Justice for the Native Americans was not negotiable as far as the Americans were concerned. The Americans were taking the native Americans land and the native Americans could accept that or be punished. Justice for the the Palestinians is also not negotiable as far as the Israelis are concerned. The Israelis are taking the Palestinians land and the Palestinians can accept that or be punished.

    The Americans liked to blame the Native Americans for every time the native Americans had to be punished for trying to get justice. Americans absolved themselves of blame even though honest logic clearly showed that the native Americans had the relative moral high ground in their dispute with the Anglo-Americans. The Israelis and their supporters like to blame the Palestinians for every time the Palestinians have to be punished for trying to get justice. Israelis and their supporters absolve themselves of blame even though honest logic clearly shows that the Palestinians have the relative moral high ground in their dispute with the Israelis and their supporters.

    In both cases the powerful thieves use self deception to escape the guilt that thieves brought up to believe that it is God's will that "thou shall not steal" would feel if they had to witness their own thievery. In both cases the thieves believed that god gave them the land and they believed that the savages must be removed so that the civilized people can live in peace. If only the savages had behaved themselves then we would not have to punish them.




    The Arabs would have no conflict with Jews or Americans if we had not tried to steal from them and in other ways interfere in their internal affairs. The Grand Mufti understood correctly that many of the Jewish immigrants intended to dispossess the Palestinians from their land. The Palestinians could have driven the Jewish immigrants out of Palestine in 1910 but the Palestinians were not like Hitler's Germans. It is because the Palestinians did not do much about Jewish immigration until it was too late for them to do anything about it that the Palestinians suffered their catastrophe. The Palestinians were not mean enough to the Jews early enough for their own good.

    Now that the Palestinians have been abused by Jews would they still be merciful to Jews if they somehow got power over Jews? I don't know.


    The deal was orchestrated by the British and based on British promises. Faisal's family owed their Kingdom to the British. They would not have beaten the Turks if the British were not also fighting the Turks. Further more Faisal had no authority to speak for "the Arabs". It would be like saying Stephen Harper Prime Minister of Canada has the authority to give Vermont to the Roma/Gypsies because Stephen Harper is a Prime Minister of Anglos and Vermont is an Anglo land and the Roma/Gypsies are an abused people without a homeland who need a homeland.


    I was wrong earlier because the British with a little help from Faisal's family and associated Arabs had already defeated the Turks by 1919.
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/ww1.html

    The British screwed both the Zionists and Faisal by trying to keep for themselves lands that they had led the others to believe would be theirs.

    What is the context for that? where does it come from? what does it mean? The ancient Jews have long ago melted genetically into the the populations of the world. The most genetically Jewish people on earth if the prevalence of Cohanim Y chromosome markers equals Jewishness would be the Palestinian Bedouin of the Sinai.

    I am no Arab or Muslim I am just a justice loving Utopian American pissed off because my USA is not the honest clear thinking justice loving place that I was taught that it was when I was a child.

    I have liked many Jews. I have no problems with Jews or Israel except that my tax dollars support a sleazy immoral process of dispossessing the Palestinians from their great grand parents land. My tax dollars do many bad things and Israel is not in the top 20 for nasty nations but in the other situations nobody talks about them and therefore I don't have to listen to dishonest justifications of the bad behavior.

    The US foreign policy has been stupid and slightly evil. Israel supporters have played a role in keeping US foreign policy stupid. pro Israel hawks want the enemyship between the USA and Arabs. I believe that the Arms industry plays a larger role in keeping American foreign policy stupid than Israel supporter do but the Arms industry is more discreet. Mindless USA USA USA chanting super patriots are also a bigger problem in causing the stupidity of US foreign policy than Israel supporters are.

    High testosterone grown up geeky boys like Rumsfeld and Cheney trying to play war games on a real world stage rather than on a playing board in their mother's basement where they can't do any harm is also a problem. Less prominent high testosterone grown up geeky boys in than tanks, in the foreign services, and in university teaching positions are also a problem. People who share Napoleon's interests, motivations or inclinations are overrepresented in the foreign policy apparatus of every nation because they self select themselves to go into that line of work. These Napoleonic people will always create some reason to try to expand their nations power and influence over the affairs of other nations. The overabundance of Napoleonic archetype people in foreign policy is th Number one reason why the USA's foreign is now, always was and probably always will be stupid. These people caused 9/11 because they needlessly picked the fight between the USA and the Arab people.

    The USA's alliance with Israel does not help the USA. I would support an honest US effort to broker peace between Israel and the Palestinians but the USA is not competent and is not honest and the gap between what could be acceptable for the majority of Palestinians and what would be acceptable to the majority of Israelis is just too huge. So nothing is possible. Palestinians are doomed to suffer punishment for the next 100 years and the fate of the Israelis is even worse because they are doomed to being evil for the next 100 years.
     
  20. Bells Staff Member

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    23,179
    They are trying to bolster their image through the use of leaflet drops, telling people that they could be killed if they stay. They are also using automated phone calls.

    God forbid their sugar coated varnish falls away and the world views them in an unsavoury light for killing so many civilians. Oops, too late.

    But they really are a caring nation. The humanitarian crisis of the Palestinians is of primary concern.

    Nothing says 'we want peace' like bombing the crap out of a people you've ousted from their homes, forced to live in ghettos and restrict humanitarian aid from reaching them.

    I don't think these people think that Israel is for peace. I don't think they think Israel should have any standing in the International community. Can't imagine why.

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  21. Bells Staff Member

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    So mass bombing, killing hundreds of people is somehow a reasonable response to the deaths of a couple of people from the missiles lobbed into your yard?

    That report was from the 28th of December. The number of deaths since then has escalated.

    I guess the understanding message from Israel to the Palestinians is 'Merry Christmas and have a fucking New Year..'.

    -----------------------------------------

    Buffalo, the reason you might not be able to read the official UN reports is because you might need to have Acrobat installed.
     
  22. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Can you please give some details as to how the Arabs reneged on the agreement? It is very clear that the Zionist organization reneged on Article IV:

    Here is main part of the brief introduction to the 1919 agreement followed by Article IV, in its entirety:

    “ ... agreement between Emir Feisal, representing and acting on behalf of the Arab Kingdom of Hedjaz, and Dr. Chaim Weizmann, representing and acting on behalf of the Zionist Organization... ”

    Article IV:
    “ All necessary measures shall be taken to encourage and stimulate immigration of Jews into Palestine on a large scale, and as quickly as possible to settle Jewish immigrants upon the land through closer settlement and intensive cultivation of the soil. In taking such measures the Arab peasant and tenant farmers shall be protected in their rights and shall be assisted in forwarding their economic development.

    Billy T’s summary of article VI:
    The Arabs welcomed the Jews to come, but only if they helped economically develop and protected the Arab peasants and tenant farmers.

    This obviously is not what happened. Instead of using their superior intelligence and wealth to help develop and protect the much more primitive Arabs, the Jews drove them from the land and past laws making it illegal for them to return or even seek compensation in Israeli courts for what was taken from them. This is just a summary of the net result. - Both sides, as today, committed hostile acts towards the others, but as today, the Arab capacity for destruction was much less than Israel's so they lost their land.

    Same way that today the Bedouins have lost their land. Israel deigns the Bedouins any legal owners ship to the land they have occupied from more than 5000 years and confines them to one of seven camps,* where the desert soil is poor and the area too small for them to continue as herders of animals.
    --------------
    *These camps are much better than the Nazi camps in that the Israelis do provide adequate food and truck in the necessary water. Also there is no work, forced or otherwise, in the camps. – Bedouin men are encouraged to leave for the Israeli Army or menial jobs in Israeli and this (together with the general depression caused by the loss of their nomadic culture with the confinement in the camps) has cause the birth rate to drop well below replacement levels. Slow extermination of a people is acceptable in the modern world. “Never again” does not apply to that.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2008
  23. otheadp Banned Banned

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    Just as Hizballah did in 2006, Hamas has killed several Arab Israelis with their rockets. One of those was an IDF soldier, still wearing his uniform (yes, there are Arab and Muslim soldiers in IDF and they are damn proud to serve).

    Maybe the "Palestinian" and other terrorist propaganda about Israeli bloodthirst are bullshit afterall ... :m:
     
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