No God???

Red Devil-

At the current moment in time, I believe this to be true. I hold science in high regards, for the future will bring forth many possiblities. I see the unification of physics and the advancement of human genetic tailoring to push us into new and exciting directions. The human race will reach the position necessary to provide answers to all our questions in the future, this is if we dont eradicate ourselves first. The universe is the last great frontier, just give us time and we will understand much much more than we can imagine today.

We will be able to take evolution in our own hands. Advancement will be so rapid, it will make today's current growth patterns look rediculously slow in comparison.

Very good point. Now imagine the growth the future holds! Thanks for the site, I will check it out.

 

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Re: not necessarily

Holy Crap, if you plug that idiotic site one more time I'm going to explode, it is full of the largest amounts of crap that I have ever seen compiled in one web site in my entire life.

Here is some of the "scientific" creationist crap you just linked us to:
http://www.creationism.org/topbar/faq.htm

Please read why Creationists don't submit articles for peer review
on this faq and at http://creationscience.com/
here is a good example:

Creationists don't want their papers reviewed by other scientists because their ideas are not only biased, but also entirely incorrect. Creationism is not a science, but a misuse of science to try and add validity to a fairy tale.

ZERO MASS

 

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I love this linked site!!

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In answer to:

What about the dinosaurs?

Simply put, they lived concurrent with man down through the thousands of years of our existence, and they appear to have gone mostly extinct prior to our modern era. Remember that the word "dinosaur" is only about 160 years old.

This is great stuff!

 

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lol! I wonder what other jobs a creationist has to sustain him. Either gas station worker, farmer, or aristocrat.

 

Re: Re: not necessarily

Evrybody listen to what this guy has to say. He has good poinions and supports his arguement to his opposition.

unfortunitly his opposition are christians, and christions just answer peoples questions withe other questions to avoid self incrimination becouse the only reason they believe in god is becouse they have no hope and feelt worthless without god until some craphead told them about jesus and said believe me.

 

The best refutation for the Christian God’s existence is the very nature of God as described in the Bible.

We are lead to believe that God is omnipotent, there is nothing he cannot do; is omniscient, he knows everything including the future; has always existed; is eternal and is all-loving.

Why then would a god who is all of these things be so insecure as to create imperfect beings for no other reason than to compel them to worship him?

Why would a god, who knows every aspect of the future, deliberately create imperfect beings and require them to obey a set of laws and injunctions that he would have known, even before he created them, that they would violate. Why would an all-loving god then punish them as a result?

Why would a god, who knows the future, create the devil? He would have known before he even created the devil that he would eventually rebel. So why create him in the first place? Why allow him to interfere with his (God’s) creations on Earth when God, being omnipotent, can prevent it? And why punish the poor imperfect beings that he created and knew ahead of time would be influenced by the devil?

Why would an all powerful god who is all knowing and all loving not reveal himself to all humans on the Earth, rather than only reveal himself to a select few and require them to spread his “word” to all others. Imagine for a moment a baby born in an isolated village in Tibet to Buddhist parents who raise him as a Buddhist. The baby grows into a man never having heard of Jesus Christ. He would never have an opportunity to hear of Jesus Christ because the Chinese government does not allow Christian missionaries into Tibet. Is it logical to believe that an all-loving god would condemn him to burn in hell for all eternity simply because this man never heard of the Christian god, especially when God, being omniscient, would have known all of this ahead of time and could simply have not allowed non-believers to come into existence in the first place?

I submit that any god who knows the future, and has the power to alter it at will, would simply not behave as described in the Bible.

 

LucidDreamer-

Doesnt the whole thing reak of illogical, illconceived, rubbish.

Very good question. Ive always wondered why it is so important for God to be worshiped, its not good enough to live a good life, we need to go the extra step and get down on our knees and praise, sounds like a typical primative human concept to me.

No great fairy tale is complete without the whole good vs evil plot. Simple answer- It would imply that God is not all powerful. Hey they are the ones who put themselves into this illogical corner.

Cause God is a woman.

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Illogical behavior is the name of his game. Come on, why make things easy for people you love, I dont know about you, but I hit my wife because I love her

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Get back in the kitchen bitch!!! See, words of love:m:

 

Lucid & Frencheneesz

So basically the bible is a "bit" skeptical. But what does that have to with the existence of a God, that isn't a refutation against a God's existence, that is simply a refutation against a Bible's God.

I understand that, however, my POINT is that this is TRULY illogical, because at some point someone needs a definition, for the defintion/absolute. And if this is "hard wired" into our brains, there is something somewhere that must suggest a definition.

As I have said, you are almost repeating my exact points, by asking questions such as the above. Exactly, how are you supposed to understand, them. If you have "pre-defined" terms, what are they defined as??? Circular logic crops up once again....

How and why are these conepts "hard wired" into our brains??

If nature did it, then how? How can nature define concepts and place an understanding of these conepts into one's mind before birth?

And generally when somone says "I can't find the words to explain it" it is said as either an exaggeration, or due to a limited vocabulary....usually the latter.

And what this leads me to believe is that the brain itself, is either flawed, or has circumvented this through its own circular reasoning. The brain has technically regress in order to "progress"....

True in some cases..... however how can one define something as farther away, if he has nothing close to compare it too, and vice versa....

Once again, you are not refuting what I said. My point is that this defintion is completely elusive in its lack in logic. This definition of an aboslute simply makes the arbitray statement that says, because there is no defintion for anything, we must simply make it so there doesn't need to be a defintion for somethings, then we can say we have a definiton for other things that ALSO have no definition.

A complete cop out, for one hasn't TRULY solved anything by doing this, one has only illogically solved things.

Look harder...is it sensical???

What is the definition of exist??

Oh, but then what is a "mutiple" of something.

Only on the weekends.

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Chriscunningham:

"If you have "pre-defined" terms, what are they defined as??? Circular logic crops up once again...."

dude, that is not circular logic. Your are using the wrong term here. The idea that the universe has lasted forever, or that an intelligent creator must have been created by an even more intelligent creator does NOT create circular logic. We might call this infinite logic, but it is linear non-the-less. Circular logic is when something is redefined by iteself, but in this case that doesn't happen.

"How and why are these conepts "hard wired" into our brains?? "

Why?! no no no. How can be answered, why is for the god-fearing people. Our brain is made up of synaptic connections between millions of neurons. We are born with a brain.... and so that brain we are born with has a certain configuration. So you go figure where we get our ideas that we are born with.

"And generally when somone says "I can't find the words to explain it" it is said as either an exaggeration, or due to a limited vocabulary....usually the latter. "

Yes, and there is a set limit that a persons vocabulary can be. That limit is the amount of words in the language. Some things just don't have words, how fucking hard is that to understand.

"brain itself, is either flawed"

dude, that is completely subjective. Don't give me opinionated crapola.

"True in some cases..... however how can one define something as farther away, if he has nothing close to compare it too, and vice versa...."

If you are that fucking retarded that you can't tell what is relatively near and far. Then either don't use the friking words this or that, or shoot yourself.

"Look harder...is it sensical???
What is the definition of exist??"

Does anyone else think this guy has completely lost it? Yes it is god damn sensical. Explain to me what part of "exsit" you don't understand.

"Oh, but then what is a "mutiple" of something. "

Ok, buddy. You can ask me to get the derivative of 1/x as many times as you want, but it goes on forever. What is your point? oh but what is the definition of this or that? Thats bullshit and it doesn't prove anything. I defined and I have to use words to do it. Give me a non verbal vocabulary and I'll give you a definition of one thats acceptable to you.

Your a fucking nut case

 

We are all god. That is, we are all aspects of god. God created us so He (It) could learn and better Himself (ourself) subjectively. How else could a perfect being possibly understand imperfection other than create imperfection and observe it? As we learn from our mistakes and grow, so does god as he IS us. He punishes us for our mistakes so we can understand that a mistake was made. Smack a puppy when its young so it learns, then you dont have to keep smacking it for its entire life. When people say " why must we worship god?" they don't understand that by worshiping god they ARE infact worshiping themselves, as we are all individual aspects of god. I dont go to church and I dont always obey the commandments so I guess I cant call myself a true christian, therefore I wont allow myself to judge or cast the first stone. We are all created so different with different opinions so we can learn from each other thus bettering ourselves. God created variety because there would be nothing to learn from someone identical to Himself (ourself). Thru knowledge comes growth. Why else do you think the universe is expanding?

 

Perspective

Parenthesis by Wes

We (the cult) are all (weak and emotionally needy) god (who arts with heavens). That is, we are all aspects of god (we are obediant to our master like dogs). God created us (I made this up) so He/It could learn and better Himself/Ourself subjectively (I comprise myself and project that onto me, I thusly MUST be the creator of me, but why did I forsake me? I'm so confused, maybe it wasn't me). How else could a perfect being possibly understand imperfection (I don't like logic) other than create imperfection and observe it? (which of course wouldn't be understanding) As we learn from our mistakes and grow, so does god as he IS us (we sit when we're told, nothin is our fault because we are god and are thusly blameless). He punishes us for our mistakes so we can understand that a mistake was made (I never understand when the master rubs my nose in it). Smack a puppy when its young so it learns, then you dont have to keep smacking it for its entire life (because it's a willing slave, like a good willing slave). When people say " why must we worship god?" they don't understand that by worshiping god they ARE infact worshiping themselves (my faith is merely justification for narcissim), as we are all individual aspects of god (I'll just redefine stuff until it makes sense to me... then if it doesn't make sense to other people I will have the upper hand, it's easier than thinking more). I dont go to church and I dont always obey the commandments so I guess I cant call myself a true christian (I feel guilty about being a hypocrite and really don't care enought to stop, only just enough to whine about it), therefore I wont allow myself to judge or cast the first stone (I'm really a good person, it's just that my stupid belief system is stupid, the stupid thing). We are all created so different with different opinions so we can learn from each other thus bettering ourselves (I was made to read about how brilliant I am when I type that to me). God created variety (the world is complicated and scary) because there would be nothing to learn from someone identical to Himself (ourself) (I'm scared about what happens when I die and can't talk about it except in secret fairy tale code that I take to be real). Thru knowledge comes growth (unless that means I have to question the validity of my assertions) Why else do you think the universe is expanding? (I don't really understand physics but I want to sound smart so I use mystic analogies to explain things that no one can understand as if I have more of a clue than they do)

(Nothing personal, you're probably well meaning and all, I'm just in a creative mood and took it out on your post)

 

He he... Nice work Wes I like it!

Assumptions are the mother of all fuck-ups, therefore I assume you are one fucked up motherfucker!

Sorry if I confused you (us) but my logic holds. How can perfection exist without imperfection? There would be no frame of reference to judge the said perfection! The only true perfection is the understanding that we are all imperfect including god (thru us). Might seem like a bit of a catch 22 to those who find the world complicated and scary!
If you smack a dog for crossing the road without looking, which in future may save the dogs life, how is this slavery?
How am I a hypocrite when I've clearly stated that I'm not perfect? My belief system extends far beyond the teachings of one religion. Most religions have a lot of positive lessons which can be applied in life. We are here to learn lessons we have set out for ourselves before we are born. We choose our parents based on which life situations we feel we need to learn from in this life. We die. If we havent learn that which we set out to learn in this life then we have to do it all again. Its as simple as that.
I understand enough physics to realise that the fabric of space/time itself is expanding constantly. Space/time is made up of pure energy. Not your regular energy but longitudinal electromagnetic waves of energy. The same energy is attributed to thought. NOT electric impulses of the physical brain but the actual thoughts of the subconsciuos soul. As collective knowledge and experience increases so does thought energy and therefore the volume of space/time itself. Every thought you perceive in some small way shapes the reality in which you exist. Ask any current russian physicist.

Dont rub your dogs nose in it, he may grow to despise you.

 

god's god, im sure he could manage it. But why- if you're all knowing would you need to create something imperfect to understand your own perfection?

Well it's pretty obvious god isn't perfect. If he was all powerful though wouldn't he just make himself perfect?

This bears no relevance to the attitude of god. It's more like this: "Dog, you will worship me without question or you burn in hell for eternity." The general rules are understandable: Don't be queer, don't sleep with animals, don't kill people etc... all good basic morals. We can teach our pet dog these things. However why make something worship you? It serves no purpose whatsoever except self-glorification. Why teach your dog not to kill others, not to eat its own poo, not to run across roads etc etc but then add: "Worship me"? Nothing wrong with a thank you every now and then but the manner with which god behaves is appaling, pointless and frankly quite pathetic.

Does god make space/time expand? Why, he needs more black void to play with?

Don't force your dog to lick your nuts on a daily basis. Do not kill his children when he's bad, do not drown his family, do not torch his village, do not cast plagues on his entire species yada yada or he may come to think you're a nasty self centered asshole.

 

Well, I can't argue with that.. but I will say that I wasn't really assuming, I was merely demonstrating the effects of perspective.

Nah, I wasn't confused I don't think. Wait. *shrug* Eh, what's the difference?

Who says perfections exists? It's an abstract, it exists only in consciousness.

Ultimately the only frame of reference is the individual.

Why do you introduce the "god" concept? You obviously aren't using it in the typical christian kind of way. You should reconsider. You'll just confuse yourself and others by your customization of a meaningless word. I will say, that for many years I've spoken of "the perfection of imperfection". One of my first threads here was regarding the topic. It's a matter of acceptance IMO. I think that all is perfect. Every aspect of the universe is performing it's function exactly as it should, regardless of expectation. Eh, look up that old thread if you're curious... it wasn't bad, though I don't think anyone agreed with me.

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Might be.

Depends on your perspective.

Uhm, think about what you just said.

That's nice, good for you. I'm glad you're not a mindless christian or muslim or whatever. Seems like there are too many of those.

Heh, you could probably learn etiquite from a mass murderer too.

Okay you're getting a bit flaky don't you think? Show me how we decide anything before we are born.. or are you just making an assumption? You're so fucked up.

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Okay Flakey Flakerson. If you say so....

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Hehe, aint that a bitch?

Thanks for letting us all know! Okay people, let's pack it up and get out of here, we've got another show tomorrow night in Houston! MOVE IT! Please man, that's just rhetoric.

Okay well, that's not knowing much so far.

Okay so you don't really know anything about physics. Just accept it please. Not that you can't know it, it's just that at this point it's obvious that you're confused. "not the regular kind of energy"? *giggle* I'm sure there's a physicist in the house here that can straighten you out. (I'm only an engineer, so while I knew phsyics, I'm somewhat rusty.)

Okay bro, I can appreciate wild theories, but please... you should discuss the validity of your crappy claims before stating them as truths.. well, at least you should if they're so transparently silly. Correlating the expansion of space with the volume of collective knowledge is simply uhm.. well, based in fantasy rather than science.

Well, you're right about that in two ways. First, your brain is shaped (physically) to an extent by its perception. Second, some experimental results depend on if you do or do not observe them. (EDIT: Okay I just realized that I don't think I worded that right... I suppose EVERY experiment depends on if you do or do not observe the results eh? Hehe, I was getting at the schroedinger's cat thing, or whatever real experiments have similar implications)

Uhm, okay well this might seem weird, but I don't know any russian phsycists to ask... but I already knew enough to respond so thanks!

You know what, I just learned that lesson the hard way. It sucked. Kudos though, for that tidbit of valid advice.

 

Oh, I meant to ask: "who arts with heavens."

did you like that? hehe, I thought it was clever!

i was on a roll yesterday.. I told someone else:

you just need to get tao'n off your :m: horse!

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I thought that was a pretty good one too... so many different meanings all packed into one little sentence! Yay wes!

LMFAO

 

It is not possible to prove that a god or god's don't exist. That would be proving a negative which is logically impossible. The skeptic can only examine each creation myth (religion) he encounters and either accept or dismiss them with logical analysis and rational thought.

 

Frencheneesz

Yes it does happen, for most words one would use to define a given concept, are almost guaranteed to be defined by that word at some point on the infinite logic scale.... Really, go ahead a look up happiness, and see if you turn around in a circle. And after that look up "exist" in the dictionary, and then tell me what it means.....because I haven't the SLIGHTEST idea.

Well then, give me an example of something that is "indescribable"...

This isn't subjective at all, inconsistent/incomplete/fallacious=flawed.

What is the definition of far, what is the defintion of near??

I can feel an A=A=A=A coming on.....

Really I would like to here what others have to say on this, however I doubt they are taking the time to read through our posts. As for what I don't understand about "exsit"; first it is the spelling second it is the concept itself. Although, you seem to have an impeccable grasp on it. Define exist.

No thing has a TRUE defintion. The world is paradoxical. Logic is paradoxical. And I have proven this time and time again, STILL waiting for your REFUTATIONS.

One could make up a word everytime there is a loss in words, however this reminds me of something you once said was "nonsensical" this is when a problem or a logical system has no resoultion, as by YOUR judgement is manifested in the case of...

This statement is true.

Why is it the answer to everything all of the sudden? I thought an infinite chain of a defintions was nonsensical...

Or just a flawless logician.

 

chris:

You're stupid.

You think you prove stuff when really you are just flailing. You don't seem to understand the neccisary concepts to discuss this. You feel the desire to prove that everything is circular logic and that nothing makes sense. Well great, whats your point?

The word exist describes a concept. If you can't fucking understand that some words are concepts and some words are abbreviations for a phrase, which you have demonstrated, than screw it. I can't convince a retard.

 

chris:

You're stupid.

You think you prove stuff when really you are just flailing. You don't seem to understand the neccisary concepts to discuss this. You feel the desire to prove that everything is circular logic and that nothing makes sense. Well great, whats your point?

The word exist describes a concept. If you can't fucking understand that some words are concepts and some words are abbreviations for a phrase, which you have demonstrated, than screw it. I can't convince a retard.

 

Ok, I guess at this point I should state the obvious. As you can see by my number of posts I'm pretty new to this whole discussion board setup. I should have said at the start of my first post on this thread that my statements are only personal beliefs NOT truths. I now see I have to watch my wording very carefully! I put my ideas out strongly so they WILL be dissected and generate disscusion, as you have done wes. I freely admit I severly lack knowledge in a lot of areas due to nothing but a high school education. I do however, have a reasonably fat IQ, an open mind and an eagerness and ability to learn, grasp and debate new and foreign concepts. So flame away.

I guess I should define my concept of "God" before I use it again in future. God to me is a term for the "collective consciousness" but also implies an overseeing singular intelligence, similar in some aspects to cells in a body. The body needs the cells (with their own individual genetic intelligence) to exist but has the power to create and destroy them at will.

This is the inherent problem in mixing science with religion. The science purists call you flaky and the religious purists call you blasphemous! IMO science and religion can and MUST eventually go hand in hand (fuck knows how!) before any real truths will be eventually discovered. I guess my belief that we choose our own lives is based (loosely) in buddhist philosophy. My understanding is that they believe we have a soul, which, progresses and grows from one life to the next, learning lessons and bettering itself along the way. Who are you to belittle the belief systems of many millions of people by calling it rhetoric? You say "prove there's re-incarnation" I say "prove there's not" We could chase each others tails forever. (Why am I using so many dog references?!!)

...and quite possibly some interesting recipes as well...

I'm quite aware energy comes in many different forms but they all still fit into the western physics "regular" accepted variations. I'm talking about longitudinal or scalar electromagnetic energy of which most western physicists will still deny exist, but which eastern physicists have discovered and weaponised decades ago. Again, I agree, my knowledge is very limited. Please follow this link for more info if you're open-minded and interested in learning something...

http://www.cheniere.org/toc.html

Snakelord - I agree, "worship" was probably the wrong word to use in its accepted context.

How often is ok then?