No God???

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by CHRISCUNNINGHAM, Mar 24, 2003.

  1. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    I was quite clear.
    Step one: seek Him
    Step two: find Him

    Matthew 7:7-8
    "7 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
    8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. "
     
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  3. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    Originally posted by TruthSeeker
    He is not perceivable in a natural manner.
    If He is perceivable AT ALL, it is in a natural manner.

    It is not that He can't be perceived, it is just that you have to seek Him first in order to find Him.

    That doesn't change the fact that in order to seek/find someone/thing He/it has to be percievable.
     
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  5. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    I have been seeking "HIM" for over 30 years now.
    I still can not percieve "HIM".
    Does that mean "HE" is not perceivable, therefore does not exist?

    What I was asking you to be more clear about was how you can "percieve" something that is not physically perceivable?

    By feeling? intuition? simply knowing? believing? having faith?

    All those things can apply to an imaginary friend too.

    How, if "HE" is not "naturally perceivable", do you distinguiish God from Timmy, your non-existant imaginary friend?
     
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  7. Frencheneesz Amazing Member Registered Senior Member

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    Wow, I have never seen so many intelligent theists in one place. I couldn't read the whole thread (or I didn't want to), but some of the people at the top thought it out logically, and I can understand a disparity in way of thinking.

    Religion is one of those things that have almost infinite variations, and because of this most non religious people have almost infinite trouble dealing with people who would rather use vauge rhetoric than speak plainly. Religious people tend to be rather caught up in their own specific beliefs and don't fully realize that people who don't have their same opinion have no idea what the hell they are talking about.

    I suggest that anyone who says they are "religious" or "believe in god" say exactly (or at least definitively) what their views are. For example, do you believe in the bible as history, do you believe that jesus existed and freed us from our sins but don't believe in genesis, do you believe god exists but don't believe in any orthadox view, etc.

    I have friends that are religious, but I can't help but think they are brainwashed by their community, forced to believe in magical fairytale-like fabrications of ancient thinking. Someone recently told me that they thought that god does not show himself in an unrefutable manner because not enough people believe in him (kind of like a childrens story where the adults cannot see some magical creature because they don't believe).

    Many people refer to a 'religious experience' when something emotionally taxing happens to them, most probably a change. One of my friends said she tried to commit suicide, but god saved her. Well, I'm glad he did, but it concerns me to think that she doesn't think that a powerful creature must be responsible for a couple not so uncommon suicide failures. So she says that she believes in god for the fact that she is still alive. Rationally I can say that either she couldn't think straight enough to do it right, or she was too confused to know whether she really wanted to do it or not.

    So far I have only succeeded in convincing someone that if humans have souls than rocks must have souls. I don't believe in god just as I don't believe in a planet in the Vega system. It may very well exist, but if I don't have proof of it, why bother beliving?
     
  8. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Persol,

    Ok, He is not perceivable in a direct manner. You have to pay attention in order to perceive Him. It is not like physical things that you can perceive even if you don't pay attention to them. The word here is focus.
     
  9. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    15,162
    one_raven,

    Where do you seek Him?

    Only because you cannot directly perceive somthing, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    Life is not physical. That's precisely what He is. The "spiritual" world is simply the world of life, the dimension of life. Once you realize that there is a separation between life and the phisical world, you become much more able to find Him. Think about it. We say that there is life after death, right. For life to exist after death, this means that our body cannot have life by itself. So this means that we are life itself, and our body is dead without us (life). Back to my original post. We are the drivers and our bodies are the cars.

    "simply knowing" or "natural knowledge", is the fastest way to go. However, it is not the easiest for every people.

    One other thing to take into consideration is the symbolic and conceptual mind. I talked about that in this thread: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19156

    Here is what I said:
    "Children first learn concepts, and then learn the symbols to communicate those concepts. This is how the brain of a child works. As the child grows and become more aware of the environment and mainly on his/her part in the world, the focus of learning change from concepts to symbols. This happens in the age of about 5 years old. In some cases it can happen as early as 4 or as late as 7, but the average is pretty much 5.

    The concept-based brain is able to store information much faster then the symbol-based brain. I would guestimate that the concept-based brain works at least some 10 times faster. That's how children learn so fast. This also enables the brain to work with different types of symbol (i.e. English and Portuguese) at the same time. So a child is more able to learn two or more languages then an adult. Also, the information is more flexible and it is easier to store and analize. The brain of a child can make much more connection then the brain of an adult. In this sense, you can use symbolical language with children and they won't have much difficulty to understand it. The brain of child works much better then the brain of an adult.

    This, of course, means that they are more able to learn about God and even to communicate easierly with God, since God also uses a very conceptual based language, instead of the symbolic that adults use.

    I've been researching about child psychology and other stuff about children since February...

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    "

    Simple. God is not imaginery, since you cannot find Him in your mind...

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  10. Frencheneesz Amazing Member Registered Senior Member

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    "We say that there is life after death, right. "

    Excuse me? "We" do not say that there is life after death. I definately do not, or do you not include me in "we"? Only religious people beleive in life after death. God has a higher probability of existance than life after death, in my mind at least.

    You seem to take that as some sort of fact - that there is life after death. Well for your information I think I will die and my phisical metabolic processes will cease, thus ceasing my phisical life.

    My problem with god, religion, and spiritual stuff is you never SEE it, or its effects. They never affect the life I see. Why don't you tell us why YOU believe, Truthseeker. Please don't tell me its cause you have faith, PULLEEEEEESE!! BECAUSE I'm not looking for that, if you want to say it is because you have faith, then tell me why you have faith, and if you think about giving me another vauge answer for THAT then tell my the why of your answer.

    I assume you have nothing, because it is all in your mind. Why can't religious people have faith in THEMSELVES and THEIR abilities to think profound things, rather than thinking it is all god's doing.
     
  11. JOHANNsebastianBACH concert master Registered Senior Member

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    therefore...bla...bla....bla......GEEK

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  12. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    OK...
    So you say that you "percieve him" simply by "knowing" he exists.

    But then you say that you can't find him in your mind?

    How do you "KNOW"?

    Again, please explain how you perceive something that can't be perceived.
     
  13. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    one_raven,

    First I perceive Him, then I acknowledge Him in my mind. The only way I can try to understand Him is really through my mind. Our minds are our tools to undertand the world. But that doesn't mean that we find the whole world in our minds. So I find Him, and then I store the information in my mind.

    He can be perceived if you pay attention. It is the amount of awareness that will make the difference. To increase your awareness of the spiritual world, you need to increase your awareness in the depths of your mind to the point of surpassing your mind. I described this in my last post.

    Read my quote. I explain there what are the differences between the conceptual and symbolical mind.
     
  14. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    15,162
    Frencheneesz,

    By "we" I meant Christians.

    No, they affect life a lot. There is a highter probability that a Christian smoker will stop smoking then a non-Christian one. Also alcholhol, drugs and any kind of dependence. That's because God meet our needs. Also faithful Christians are more able to become rich and have abundance then non Christians or unfaithful ones.

    I believe partially because of faith and partially because of logic. The logic is simple: nature is too complex and to "right in the place" to not be created by an inteliigent for of life. The explanation for faith is quite simple also. Faith is the eyes of the spirit. Faith is to see God's promises instead of the problems. Live by faith and not by sight...

    Because we recognize we are humans. We recognize that we are not perfect and that we make many mistakes. So we search for a greater wisdom.
     
  15. Frencheneesz Amazing Member Registered Senior Member

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    739
    "There is a highter probability that a Christian smoker will stop smoking then a non-Christian one."

    Therefore god exists? This is pretty shoddy logic. The big problem with those statistics and your conclusion is that there are too many variables. Non-religious people are also more likely not to be involved in a group activity of some sort. They get different influence. Religion influences your mind. It is the church, the community, and your friends that makes one better off, not god. You have no faith in human ability, and that is why religion is dangerous.

    Perhaps we will be better off if we pray to god, than if we use our minds to solve the problems of the world.

    "The logic is simple: nature is too complex and to "right in the place" to not be created by an inteliigent for of life. "

    Really? Nature seems to follow very simple rules. Just because you can't comprehend nature does not mean there has to be an intelligent being that created it. The circular logic of that is quite clear. You say our intelligence must have been created by a more intelligent being, but doesn't that then mean that god has to have been created my an even more intelligent being?

    Your logic has too many holes. There are other reasons for the statistics you mentioned, there are other reasons for the current state of nature. Must you be so lazy as to attribute god to anything you don't want to think about?
     
  16. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    15,162
    Frencheneesz,

    No, the danger is if you think that you have a greater ability then you actually have. And the way faith works is: this is possible if you believe so. So it actually helps you in overcoming yourself. The Bible clearly says that faith without works is dead, so faith that only asks God for something and do nothing is pointless and even an insult to God.

    Using our minds haven't worked so far. We even have some danger of a nuclear war. The danger is actually far greater then in the Cold War, since the weapons that Russia had were all sold to other countries in order to pay for rebuilding the country. So we don't know where those weapons are anymore, and that is the real danger. Trying to solve with our minds ceratainly doesn't work.

    If God have always existed, He doesn't need to have been created. But an universe that creates intelligent life must have some kind of intelligent force, since you can only create something based in what is already existant. For an intelligent being to be created, first, the universe had to have this capability. You cannot give what you don't have.

    I've though about those things for years. There aren't any other reasons for the statistics I mentioned and nature is far more complex then you think it is. It seems that the greatest incapabilities of modern science is to explain infinity, life and death. Not much learned on those since the old times...

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  17. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    Well i suppose i might become a christian if it means i'll quit smoking. Does god allow me to drink beer or is that a problem also? What about porn? God gave me a willy i intend to use it to its maximum potential........

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    Yeah man im with ya! Let's just sit on our ass and pray instead: *Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya* Thats bound to solve the problems.

    Then neither do we.. And why is god a 'he'?

    Utter garbage.
     
  18. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    15,162
    SnakeLord,

    God adivices us not to do anything that might become addictive.

    No it wouldn't. We would have to take action. But seek wisdom before acting is crucial.

    We didn't exist forever and God is a "He" because there is no real neutral word...

    That's what the human mind is.
     
  19. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    I'm addicted to excercise....... You telling me God is advising me to die ten years earlier because of lack of excercise?

    Indeed, but wisdom and prayer don't fall under the same category.

    'It' is about as neutral as it gets and prevents the blatant act of sexism that is prevalant in society.

    Secondly: Ok, we might not have existed forever but we know we exist now. That's more than can be said for god. We have faith he exists but thats it. I'm here typing on a forum. I bleed, smoke and move. I think- therefore i am. I exist.... if anything else exists come forward and speak now. If not how can 'it' ever expect acknowledgment? It's the same old saying: There very well may be such thing as purple five headed orang utans but until we see them and can show without any doubt their existence they remain nothing more than a 'belief'.

    Then how can you ever take it seriously? If it is all in fact utter garbage what makes you think your belief has any validity? Or mine or anyones? Anything we say becomes null and void.
     
  20. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    SnakeLord,

    No, you are not addicted to exercise. You just exercise regularly, that's totally different. An addiction is when you cannot stop doing something, and it starts to harm you. Exercise can also harm you if you do them too much and too heavely. Balance is crucial for healthy living.

    That's exactly where you are totally wrong. They are totally inter-related. Wisdom can only come from God, so the only way that you can get wisdom is by asking Him.

    James 1:5
    "5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. "

    Well, we need something more neutral than that. We use "it" for animals, and they are not neutral.

    If I start talking with you but you don't believe I exist, you won't listen to me at all. You cannot listen to Him just because you don't believe He exists in the first place. If you were at least impartial about His existance, you would be able to listen to Him.

    Unless there is some of God's wisdom in it. Can you compare your words with the Word of the One who created the whole universe? Can you be wiser then Him? What are you compared to Him? Does He need you at all? What is His wisdom compared to yours? If you would even listen to Him, would you be able to understand His Wisdom? If you don't concider how great He MUST be in order to be the creator of the whole universe, then your search for Him becomes pointless and hopeless.
     
  21. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks but im well aware of what addiction is but you're right i did use a bad example. However you're still in no place to 'assume' i just excercise regularly. I said i was addicted who are you to say otherwise? But with extreme excercise there's not really that much harm given, (unless you stop), in which case its simply the continued addiction that keeps you healthy. Once you stop the muscle and toned body turns into unhealthy flab etc etc.

    Fraid this comes down to matter of opinion. I notice this intense lack of self-worth religious people promote. Wisdom can come from within, it doesn't have to be from an 'apparent' God. I see you like passing everything off to one guy in the sky. Personally, and dont be offended, but i find that a tragic waste of life. I saw in another thread someone saying everything great that we do is thanks to god. It really belittles your own existence. I don't expect you to understand what im saying, we're on completely separate paths.

    Great..... so because some dood named james said so 2000 years ago it's instantly complete truth? ever hear the saying: dont believe everything you read? Quoting scripture, which seems the only line of defence, shows nothing except an eager willingness to accept things at face value without having any facts. Again, in my opinion, a waste of life.

    dictionary.com: Used to refer to that one previously mentioned. Used of a nonhuman entity; an animate being whose sex is unspecified, unknown, or irrelevant; a group of objects or individuals; an action; or an abstraction:

    Either way 'it' is a lot better than the sexist attitude that 'he' promotes.

    This is a pointless comment- even you can see that surely? But for the sake of argument i will respond:

    If you started talking to me i'd have no choice but to believe you did exist. I believe you exist now simply because we're talking. Of course you may not be anything like what my mind imagines. Same principle works for god. If 'he' talks to you 'he' may very well exist but what if your interpretations as to what/who 'he' is are completely off scope? Doesn't that mean the jews, buddhists, ancient greeks could be more accurate in their assumptions of what/who god is? In your own words: You cannot listen to Him just because you don't believe He exists in the first place. If you were at least impartial about His existance, you would be able to listen to Him.

    You don't believe in The god Thor for example so how can you disclaim it? If you're not impartial and open to the possibility you'll never hear him speak. The things you do hear would be tailored specifically to suit you, simply because you're not open enough to hear anything else. You cannot listen to Thor, instead you're hearing that which your mind wants to hear.

    Of course i can. They're words coming from my heart, my soul, my brain...

    All you have is a poorly translated book.

    My specialities are Mark Twain, Best curry restaurants in london, and films.

    His specialities are creating universes, drowning people and talking only to christians.

    I think we'd end up on even scores. Again you are doing nothing more than belittling your own existence. It's all down to god... fair enough man. I bet you're relieved you're christian otherwise you'd be in a right old load of poo.

    I'm a decent man. I don't drown people. I don't turn peoples wives into pillars of salt. I don't claim everything as my own doing and create beings with absolutely no worth other than my own self centered amusement. I don't flood the earth when im feeling moody because nobody believes in me even though i've never sat down and said hello, and even though i gave them their free will to believe what they want to. If i was in that position i'd just remove the free will. I also do not threaten people with eternal damnation if they don't do as i say. I also wouldn't show the extreme level of hypocricy to the things i'd created.

    Frankly it's a worldwide dictatorship with the pretence of a free society.

    Maybe not, but then again i didn't ask to be here so perhaps we're just here to satisfy his need for petty amusement. Does he need me? Do i need him? Sounds like a double 'nope' to me.

    Why would i need to listen to him? Look if you need a babysitter in life that's fine. I seem to be doing rather well by myself and have grasped the essential basics: Dont jump in front of moving cars, dont put fingers in plugsocket etc etc. That'll do me fine. Everything else i need to know i can find out by myself, and with the aid of other humans. I dont need an invisible babysitter who's only concern is the worlds christians and whom we all should fear.

    He MUST not be anything. You rely on 'faith' and 'belief'. I hear religious people very often saying this:

    "I question my faith daily"..... You'll see this comment several times on many threads in this forum. The mere fact anyone questions it is sign of doubt. Conveniently religious folk label it as "a test". It's subconcious doubt..but is tucked away thanks to fear and unknowing of how we would cope by ourselves without being able to attribute it all to our big babysitter.

    I appreciate the beauty on this planet and in the sky above, however where does that ever mean there's a big guy up there?
     
  22. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Tisk Tisk

    PEOPLE... the most intelligent post of this thread was COMPLETELY IGNORED. It is so succinct that it almost blows right by you. Please, read ConsequentAthiest's post and THINK about it.

    WHAT GOD(S) ARE YOU REFERRING TO? - CA

    That is the most pertinent question in this debate. Would you theists please respond?
     
  23. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    RETRACTION: CA wasn't so rude as to use all caps. Muhbad (My bad). Ironically I was too lazy to use the
     

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