No speed and the speed of light: The Same

Discussion in 'Alternative Theories' started by A Graham, Nov 2, 2014.

  1. krash661 [MK6] transitioning scifi to reality Valued Senior Member

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    2,973
    it's referred to as warp or jump. then there's also time travel.
    so far it's 14 per dimensional plane.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2014
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  3. latecurtis Registered Member

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    I am not seeking the last word. I have only been struggling most of my life to comprehend the speed limit of light. I studied astronomy since I was 5 or 7 years old. I am going to be 50 years
    old next year in April. I did not graduate college but need only 14 credits to get an associates degree in electrical technology. I am just fascinated by the subject. I am definitely not stating that I am correct on my thinking. I am more leaning toward trying to figure out why I think the way I do. I have always thought big. On a macro scale as the universe is so large. I have watched many discovery. Nova and science
    programs. I have also read tons of physics magazines and a few books on modern physics. Outside of acquiring a decent vocabulary on the subject I still have a limited understanding on any of these theories.
    I am here to learn and enjoy the interaction of talking to intelligent people. My friends in the real world do not share my intellect and I cannot converse on such subjects. Their mostly alcoholics and the only math they are interested in is figuring how many ounces are in a 6 pack compared to 3- 40 ounce beers. I do not bash or put anybody down for their thinking or ideas and hope that the respect here is mutual. I am here to learn and appreciate other points of view. Yes I am a little pissed at Einstein for developing the atomic bomb. But outside of that peace prize remark I do not wish to offend anyone.
    It is the first time I have ever participated in a science forum. I am a member of endless sphere. A forum dedicated to all electric powered vehicles. I believe in clean green energy and saving our planet. I also have an electric bike and am currently building another one. My screen name there is latecurtis there also. Thanks Latecurtis out.
     
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  5. origin In a democracy you deserve the leaders you elect. Valued Senior Member

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    I would recommend that you go to your local community college and take some Math, physics or astronomy courses. You could probably talk to the professor and just audit the class (do not pay) or depending on your school you may get a substantially reduced rate at 50. good luck.
     
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  7. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Simply, as we accelerate we gain energy, therefor mass.
    As we approach "c", mass approaches infinity, therefor requiring an infinite amount of energy to push it even further. An obvious paradox.
    And relativity does not really forbid anything going faster then light...It forbids anything with mass, accelerating up to and exceeding light speed.
    Nothing in it says something may not be created already at light speed or in excess of it.
    Tachyons FTL particles are sometimes theorised, which would fit the latter category.
    Spacetime is not curtailed by the speed of light barrier.


    Sure it has.
    Ignoring the "proven" concept, which in fact science does not really do, we do have evidence supporting many concepts.
    Muons and other particles in accelerators, all appear to undergo relativistic effects such as time dilation.
    As scientific theories continue to make correct predictions and continue to match observations, they do grow in certainty....the BB, SR, GR, Evolution, and Abiogenesis are some that are so near certain, they are sometimes taken as fact.

    All scientists, cosmologists and physicists in general have been trying to do that since Newton was a boy. And whats more, they continue to do it. That is science.
    Worth noting also, that much to the displeasure and disdain of some of our alternative hypothesis pushers, the modifications, improvements and completely new theories, that do come about, are all by the mainstream brigade.
    Quite logically, as it is they who have acces to the LHC and other accelerators, telescopes, the HST, and the myriad of inter solar system probes that we have gathering the necessary data.
     
  8. krash661 [MK6] transitioning scifi to reality Valued Senior Member

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    ahh, i just seen one of these the other day, but it was a dirt bike.
    yzarc, i thought it was awesome. i never seen one.
     
  9. latecurtis Registered Member

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    Endless sphere.com. ebike general discussion new motor.
     
  10. latecurtis Registered Member

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    Tachyon particles if they do exist would have some mass. Photons are not supposed to have any mass yet they get sucked into a black hole.
    If they did not have mass than they should not be effected by gravity. Photons travel at light speed but cannot exceed light speed correct.

    I heard that they are a wave and a particle at the same time. What is confusing to me is how can something exist if it has no mass at all. I wrote this last night

    Up late, thinking again. Yea I'm having a few. Its all good. Black holes are on my mind. The thing that interests me a lot is the density of matter. Matter compressed into a black hole. The normal space in matter not compressed is extremely vast. The space between the nucleus of one atom to another and the space between the orbiting electrons. Its very hard to imagine what its like to have a planet crushed down to the size of a basketball. I don't know what the term used is so I will call it atomic compression. There will be a limit to it I am Shure.
    Alien super advanced technologies thousands of years ahead of us will eventually solve the mystery of the singularities that exist in galaxies. New elements will be formed and new exotic forms of energy developed. Perhaps a giant sphere of super dense matter which can bend time and space thru gravity. Simply getting close to it at high velocity and orbiting it will take you into the past or the future. Or you will fly into a different timeline and disappear forever. Anyway lets get back to the computer simulation thing.
    A program needs to be developed on the computer to support or disprove scientific theories. I think that advanced quantum computing technology needs to be developed immediately if not sooner. Dark matter and energy are still unexplained for the most part.
    Albert stated that they could exist I think. I know the mass of the universe was one of his equations and Dark matter was used to make something work. Please correct me if I am wrong. I want to get the facts strait. The speed of light is an extremely complicated subject.
    I know albert is considered the smartest person who ever walked on the planet so far but what I cant get past is the fact that the smartest man did the dumbest thing in history when he invented the atom bomb. It has been many years since then but it still could be the end of us all. If he was a little smarter he would have got really drunk and forgot about it when he discovered it.
    How many people think like me and say light speed will never hold up on a grand macro scale. I cannot possibly be the only one. I really want to try to understand the math behind it.
    I want to see how the mass of an object increases to infinity before reaching light speed. Can this be proven on a simulation. I have never seen it on any science program.
    thanks and please try to clear this up for me. Latecurtis.
     
  11. origin In a democracy you deserve the leaders you elect. Valued Senior Member

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    No not really. Tachyons, which I do not think exist, would apparently have imaginary mass. That is, imaginary like \( i=-1^2\) not like unicorns.

    They are affected by gravity because gravity is warped space and the photons are traveling in a 'straight' line through that warped space.

    Yep.

    Mass is not required for existence.

    If the gravity is high enough there is no known force that would prevent the mass from continuing to compress to a singularity.

    A computer program is only as 'smart' as the programer.

    Lots of people are working on it.

    ,
    You cannot say he was the smartest man ever but he was a hell of a physicist.

    Well rest easy, he did not invent the atomic bomb.

    Look up special relativity, and read a few of the articles.
     
  12. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    22,374

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    Photon's follow geodesic paths. Photons follow the curvature of spacetime. Photons also create their own tiny spacetime curvature, due to their momentum. BH's have critical spacetime curvature, so much so that light has no choice about which way to go.


    See previous answer.

    You need to do some serious reading, fair dinkum!
    You have so much wrong...You ignore so much of what has already been explained to you...

    A couple of points anyway......
    If you enlarged the nucleus of an atom of hydrogen to the size of a pea, and stuck it in the middle of the Melbourne Cricket Ground, the electron would be orbiting outside that main grandstand area....The rest is empty space. So yes, an atom can have heaps of compression to undergo.
    The other point is that Einstein was a scientist. He was not responsible for the Atomic bomb, although he did sign the letter to recommend it be constructed in the face of German aggression and the possibility that it was also carrying out work on the bomb.
    Maybe you need to criticise Fred Flintstone for discovering fire, since it can also be used for aggressive purposes
     
  13. latecurtis Registered Member

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    Ok I got it. It makes sense to me know. A black hole has an event horizon. anything that reaches that point would appear to stop or freeze in time forever as all information about the object is gone once it passes thru to wherever. Mass as it reaches the speed of light is infinite also. That is because once it crosses that point it disappears from our known universe or dimension. I am not Shure which.
    It is kind of like a rocket ship leaving the gravity field of the earth. A person standing on earth with limited vision will see it disappear at the exact point it escapes earths gravity. If that person were to take a picture of it at the last moment.
    If you were to watch a person being sucked into a black hole at the
    event horizon you would see their hand sticking out frozen in time. A macro size object would appear frozen in space the instant it reaches light speed as there would be no more information on it in this universe or dimension. The speed of light is the crossover point that seperates us from someplace else. It is not only a speed limit it is a boundary that once crossed an object could never return. That is what I think. I dont believe in hyperspace or warp fields. I seriouslly doubt that a spaceship can disappear and pop out somewhere else in the same universe.
    It makes sense to me as we have never witnessed any object anywhere in deep space exceeding light. We have also not seen an alien spacecraft pop thru a wormhole in our solar system. As immense as the universe is an extreamly advanced civillation would have a spaceship and would have made their presence known if faster than light travel thru space were possible thru advanced propulsion, wormholes or some type of warp fields.
    It does not rule out the possibility of an intellegent race or some beings or entity from another universe or dimention could find a way to cross over to our space and time. It is possible that they have but I doubt they would be able to interact with us as our laws of physics would not apply to them. They would have no mass and be intangable.
    It would explain a lot of UFO sitings. You see them then they accelerate very quickley and dissapear. We may someday be a UFO in another universe or dimention if we do attempt and succeed in exceeding the speed of light. We will pop into the sky somewhere else not of this universe and then dissapear. The big question is when we dissapear from there will we be able to return here. I think not but what do I know. Thanks Latecurtis out
     
  14. latecurtis Registered Member

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    Im sorry about this but my brain wont stop working and I need to document what I am thinking just in case it may have some scientific value. Most people who imagine the opposite side of a black hole as a single small portal where cosmic soupe of whatever the stuff is after the supercompression spews out. I just thought of another explaination. The cosmic soupe or whatever it is will be an exotic form of matter or energy .Since it has been forced into this other dimention we will call it. It is possible that it cannot exist there for any period of time and it dissapates randomley or spreads out and then dissapears back into this universe. Since it has lost or changed its form but still retains some lower or exotic energy or should I say properties than it would remain in this universe but at an altered state. A state that is very difficult to detect and only shows up when a scientist comes up with an equasion to measure all the known mass in our universe and sees that 70 percent or so of the total mass cannot be seen.
    My question is how long after the big bang did black holes exist or were formed. This may be the reason that the universe is expanding. The dark matter or dark energy which is pushing everything apart is comming from all the black holes in the universe. The black holes are pushing stuff into we will just say another place and it interacts with exotic particles or whatever is there and then gets rejected from there back to here in the form of dark matter or energey. Someone who is really good at math needs to come up with an equasion to try and link the amount of matter sucked into black holes and the rate of universal expansion. Please let me know and if it deserves its own post than go ahead and post it please.
    Thanks Latecurtis out
     
  15. latecurtis Registered Member

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    I am contemplating the definition of mass. I know that a large mass has a greater gravity field than a small mass. The planet Jupiter is larger than earth so a person would weigh a lot more there then here. Mass and weight are different but related as the sun would have a greater pull on the earth than the moon as the earth has greater mass. Infinite mass though is most difficult to contemplate. Due to the vast space between the nucleolus of atoms in ordinary matter and large space between the first layer of electrons orbiting a nucleus in an atom it is most difficult to imagine the mass of an object increasing as it nears light speed. It is easier to imagine the compression of matter as it is crammed into a black hole. Obviously the space between atoms and the electrons orbiting the nucleus would have to decrease to say compress a large mass such as a star into the singularity in a black hole. There would be a limit where it would become solid neutrons and protons and no space at all between them. I am not Shure what would happen to the electrons. All I know is once there is no space left the neutrons and protons would break down to the elementary particles which make them up until they simply can no longer exist in this universe and that is where the laws of physics break down and they disappear from our universe and become something else somewhere else. and I also know that some atoms have a greater mass than other atoms. I get that too. Mass therefore is different than size and matter can be compressed into an extremely small space until it reaches infinite density and dissapears. I get that.
    That is why an advanced computer simulation of an object nearing light speed needs to be done to see physically what happens to that object because that's what I dont get. An increase in mass of an object means that it either must increase in size or density. Also what about its atomic number or actual number of atoms in the object. Does the atomic weight increase as the mass increases or does the number of atoms or the atomic number of the object increase. Do you now see why it is not as simple as e = mc squared or whatever that equation is that describes the special theory. Something physical must happen when the mass of an object increases. It is explained clearly when matter is compressed into a black hole but is very vague when an objects mass is said to increase to infinity. It would either expand or become super dense as it increases in mass near the speed of light. Obviously no living creature would be able to withstand such stress any more than anything could survive passing thru a black hole. Please explain this to me as I know there are a lot of people on this forum that are smarter than I am. What physically changes when an objects mass increases. Does the structure of each atom change somehow. Does the atomic weight of each subatomic particle change. Something must change physically . The entire theory is simply a fallacy if the object retains the same physical state as its mass increases. It is totally impossible. This would also explain why the entire concept of the cosmic speed limit is not clear to me and why I never believed in it. If my questions could be answered I would have seen it on a science program or it would have been made clear in a book or magazine and I would not be wasting my time or yours posting this now. Like I said before something was missing in that equation and scientists needed that equation to be true so they could come up with new theories. That's what they do come up with theories that can never be proven. I don't see how an objects mass can increase without its physical properties changing. What happens? does each atom split into more and more atoms. If so where does the subatomic particles come from to make more atoms. or does each atom start gaining nutrons and protons. If you ask me the entire concept is totally absurd. There is no speed of light. I am really mad as I thought I had this figured out in my last post; but then I had to question infinite mass again. I hope somebody can clear this up as I feel like a complete idiot now. I am going to proceed to the beer store and getting drunk and try to forget about this and concentrate on holes in the bedroom instead of outer space for now. LOL . Ill post this at the library tomorrow. Thanks Latecurtis out.
     
  16. latecurtis Registered Member

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    Infinity? really. I like the way scientists throw that word around. Infinite mass Infinite universe they even have a symbol for infinite for use in math equations. What I am getting at is the human brain can not even comprehend what infinity even is. How are you going to put it in an equation if you cant measure it or place a value on it. There is no beginning or end to infinity.
    Also how are you supposed to measure the mass of an infinite universe. It is foolish to try because the answer is obviously infinite mass. We can only measure as far as our telescopes can see. If we assume the rest of it could or will follow the same patterns we would be foolish.
    There could be a supersize cloud of exotic energy of some sort double the distance are largest telescopes can currently see. It could be larger than our known universe but as simple as a cosmic storm of dense exotic particles from another universe and when they interact with any form of matter in this universe they morph into it and fade into a third universe forming totally new forms of matter with different properties altogether.
    Oh and this cloud pf particles would already be at infinite mass as they would exist in the multiverse or all universes at the same time like the string theory where particles are like strings and vibrate in all dimensions at once. So now this cloud would not have to obey any speed limit. Obviously nobody would see it coming as everything you see when you look up in the sky is light or photons that took many light years to millions or billions or more of light years to get here.
    You would simply look up in the sky some day and see everything disappear. You may even here popping and crackling sounds like in that Steven King movie the Langeleers. LOL.
    And the irony of it all is the universe would not even notice anything unusual happening. the number of galaxies lost in the storm would have absolutely no value in an infinite universe as there would be an infinite number of galaxies and galaxies clusters left. Enter an infinite number of storms and still nothing would change because both the storms and number of galaxies will remain infinite.
     
  17. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    From the point of view of someone in a spaceship watching me approach the EH of a BH, they would actually see me gradually red shifted until faded from view, and time slowed to infinity.
    Nothing is actually seen to stop.
    From my own point of view, I approach the EH, and pass through it with nothing extraordinary happening. [Ignoring possible tidal gravitational effects]


    Nothing with mass will ever reach the speed of light....PERIOD!


    Nothing with mass will ever reach light speed and nothing is ever seen to stop, just red shifted until disappearing from the observers view from any remote location.
    In fact nothing is ever seen to cross the EH from any remote location, although as already stated, from the view point of someone approaching the BH, nothing extraordinary happens.
    He will cross the EH and onto oblivion.

    All arse up again. The EH is what separates anything that has crossed it from the outside Universe. It is 100% literally cut off from the rest of the Universe.
    What happens then, we do not know.
     
  18. latecurtis Registered Member

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    Another thing is the fact that most of everything we see with our telescopes and scientific equipment happened millions and billions of years ago
    Or did it's tiny and insignificant we are in an infinite universe we could be nothing more than a joke to an advanced civilization thousands or even millions of years ahead of us. We would have no way of knowing if everything we see is real or not. Like the movie the Matrix we could easily be seeing whatever they want us to see. I have a 55 gallon fish tank with 5 Asian swamp eels in it. I take care of them. they get fish worms 3 times a week 52 worms a week. I even built structures for them to hide and feel comfortable. They are air breathers that come up for air but never evolved to get out of the water. They yawn sometimes when looking thru the glass and it makes me laugh. Kind of the way we are probably being laughed at when we stare at the cosmos thru are telescopes.

    Its just my opinion. Sorry If anyone is offended. Latecurtis.
     
  19. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    That in reality is not the case. Scientists/astronomers/cosmologists do have situations that "approach Infinity" that is not the same as infinity.
    In other circumstances it generally infers that all our laws of physics and GR are unable to be applied or break down...eg: The BB Singularity and BH singularities.

    Some advice again. It's great to be able to think for ones self and ponder the big questions and try to logically form a view of reality.
    But until you have more factual knowledge on the matter you are behind the eight ball.
    Even Newton, arguably the greatest scientist who ever lived once said....
    "I see as far as I do, because I am standing on the shoulder's of giants"
    It would do you and many other supposed alternative hypothesis pushers to remember those words.
     
  20. latecurtis Registered Member

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    Had to go eat breakfast at 3pm LOL. Sorry if I got carried away. I posted way too much at one time. I was up all night writing. I will take everyone word for it that nothing can go faster than light .
    Just please someone explain to me when an objects mass increases when approaching the speed of light and describe what happens physically to the object if it were possible to view it close up. I need a better understanding of this concept.
     
  21. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Just explained [I hope] in two other threads.
    Although I would also like some reputable comments on that.
    You all know who you are.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    the reputable members I mean.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  22. AlexG Like nailing Jello to a tree Valued Senior Member

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    The mass does not increase, the energy does. The old concept of relativistic mass is obsolete. What we get is an increase in relative energy. But you only see these effects from another reference frame. In it's own frame, the object detects no changes.
     
  23. A Graham Registered Member

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    Origin. I see you have a lot of followers. But, like you they are far too quick to respond without fully absorbing the material: for example, Krash661 - bashing out know it alls does not imply knowing everything is a bad thing. Did you study English?

    Apparently I am discussing stuff with misfits with little knowledge of communication in The English Language. I guess Physicist are not required to study such vagueries as language, cos it's all numbers for you.

    Once again, Krash661 - I did not say I was nurturing or teaching. Do I have to spell this out for you? I said I "prefered the method of nurturing"; as in I like people who nurture and teach, rather than those who bully and bash.

    Krash661 - I never said I knew it all, I presented a concept. I am far from knowing it all, otherwise I would never have needed to present my case to this forum. You seem to be missing the point. You are using this particular part of the forum as a coconut shy, when Alternative Theories is an invitation for alternative thought which science openly endorses.

    Honestly, you guys may know alot about physics but you are a sad bunch of sadists. My point was, that we need to open up science, allow young scientists to grow, to feel they are a part of something (Not Me). Get interesting topics flowing, see what happens. There are thousands of young aspiring physicists hoping to make their mark (Not Me) who need nurturing, who need to see that their concepts may get a look in or a mentors nudge.

    Yes, you can jump on the (Not Me) paragraph to show that I am not worthy of your species, but that's not the point. I never said I was. I just put out a thread.

    This place seems to be just a lions den with a few arrogant know it alls. No place to further the cause of science. Some of you Valued Senior Members in my opinion are actually a disgrace to further education.

    Is that a nine banded Armadillo? My work is in Biology, and my guess is you will now go and look up the different armadillos so as not to look like an idiot. And where did you get that pic? Hope it was royalty free. Hope you didn't just take it off a site and call it yours. Did you take the photo yourself?

    And OMG you are hidden under the guise of Origin. As if you were the beginning, the be all and end all.., how arrogant.

    Hope this strand hangs around for a long time, so that those visiting Sciforums gets a wiff of what you folks are up to. If this is the future of education and information, I'm so not impressed with the human race.
     

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