Obama’s executions without judicial review

Discussion in 'World Events' started by StrawDog, Mar 8, 2012.

  1. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,391
    More to the point, there is an insistence that any response to terrorism must necessarily go exclusively through the criminal justice system, and eschew warfare entirely.

    Which is one thing to advocate as an ideal, but when people start insisting that it simply is not a war it seems inane to me. If both sides agree that they're having a war, and act accordingly, then it seems to me that the result is a war, regardless of whether either side is technically a "state" or has whatever sized military or geopolitical power. For that matter, I'd hazard that you generally only need one side to decide that they're involved in a war and act accordingly, to qualify.

    None of which is to say that crime and war are exclusive of one another, but there are fairly salient reasons why warfare cannot be subsumed into criminal justice.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,634
    I agree, especially as to terrorism really being a hybrid of both crime and war (at least when practiced for political ends, as it is by al Qaeda).

    On this particular topic though, Congress authorized the executive branch to treat the matter as if it were a war—by military action. That gives the President broad legal authority to treat terrorists little different than irregular enemy soldiers, including killing them. When dealing with attacks against non-uniformed irregulars, mistakes will be made (and sometimes innocent non-soldiers will be misidentified and killed). That has been a part of the law of war for a long time, and is not considered to be itself unlawful.

    As soon as Congress authorized military action, the President's targeting of individuals believed to be al Qaeda operatives was legally authorized. They are no more entitled to a trial than an enemy soldier would be. If al-Walaki were to have surrendered himself, then we could not (legally under the laws of war) have killed him, though we could hold him at least until the war ends (i.e. when Congress says the war has ended)...all without him ever seeing a judge.

    The fix, as I stated before, is to have Congress act to (possibly to rescind the 2001 authorization or possibly just to set up a procedure by which targeted killings can be vetted). Until then, Congress has spoken...and they said "use the military as you see fit." As a military matter, the President has broad authority as commander in chief, and the courts have very limited authority.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Xotica Everyday I’m Shufflin Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    456
    As head of the Executive branch of government, the president has the authority to issue specific policy directives to the CIA and DHS. These fall under the rubric of "Executive Order" and are considered legal instruments. Approximately two-thirds of the Presidential Security Directives issued by presidents Bush and Obama remain classified. According to non-government analysts, the probability is high that the policy and parameters of the drone targeting program (Pakistan and elsewhere) are contained within these classified Bush/Obama executive directives (NSPD/HSPD/PSD/PPD).
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Xotica Everyday I’m Shufflin Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    456
    Probably, many of you have not been in the military. I take this opportunity to provide some background on operations commonly known as "Black Ops"

    In the United States, black ops are typically undertaken by either the CIA paramilitary force, Seal Team Six (Navy), or Delta Force (Army). Very often, these units are assisted by Task Force 160 (Army - Night Stalkers - helicopter insertion/extraction). All of these elite units operate under the command of JSOC (Joint Special Operations Command). The commander of JSOC reports to only two people, the President of the United States and the Secretary of Defense. The intelligence unit of JSOC is known as Gray Fox. In addition, a special unit of computer/communication specialists is under JSOC command. They are the best in the digital world (this is probably where the Stuxnet program originated).

    The black ops food chain looks like this:

    President
    Secretary of Defense
    Commander - JSOC
    DCI / Commanders - CIA / Seal Team Six, Delta Force, TF 160
    Unit Commanders

    The food chain above deals with High Value Targets (HVT) and High Value Individuals (HVI). The process begins with what is termed a "Target Folder". This contains the five W's - Who, What, Where, When, Why. Such a folder will contain all relevant intelligence information and imagery. Perhaps the most important portion is a section entitled "Commanders Intent". This is where the civilian powers that be (CIC/SoD) articulate the desired end result. This is where it oftentimes gets a bit dicey. Sometimes the language is clear and explicit - Use whatever force is necessary to destroy the HVT/HVI. Other times, it is ambiguous with terms such as neutralize. At this juncture, the JSOC must seek further clarity to avoid misunderstandings and possible legal prosecution.

    Another compoment of black ops is accomplished jointly by the CIA and USAF at an Air Force base in Nevada. As in the case under discussion here, this features the use of armed drones (UAVs). The weapons are usually AGM 114 Hellfire missiles attached to the drone wing pylons. In the drone "cockpit" are three seats which face a wall of monitors. There are keyboards and joysticks on the console. In the left seat is the pilot who must be a certified fighter pilot with at least the rank of Captain and trained to operate a UAV. In the right seat is the Weapons System Officer (WSO) who is trained in this specialty and must also have at least the rank of Captain. Between these and slightly behind them sits the Mission Commander who must outrank the pilot and WSO. No aggressive actions can transpire without his/her express permission. Everything that occurs during a shift in the cockpit (data/video/audio) is recorded by computers and the mission is saved to hard drive. The Mission Commander must then compose an After Action Report (AAR) which is thoroughly reviewed by superior officers and intelligence/military analyists. A cardinal rule here is that the mission AAR must never be fudged and/or misleading.
     
  8. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,119
    It's disgusting. We are the evil we have sought to destroy. We are as bad as the Third Reich. We have no respect for freedom and human dignity. If the parents of innocent children are bad, who cares. . . kill 'em all. . .

    Evil evil men lead us now.

    An American Teenager in Yemen: Paying for the Sins of His Father?

    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2097899,00.html

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    An image of Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, the son of Anwar al-Awlaki, posted on a Facebook page dedicated to his memory

     
  9. Balerion Banned Banned

    Messages:
    8,596
    How does this make us as bad as Nazi Germany? You must be very young, because you have clearly not yet learned that absurd hyperbole only makes you look foolish.

    We didn't specifically target the kid, obviously, but when you keep company with a radical cleric who hangs out with terrorists, bad things happen to you.
     
  10. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    I was under the impression that the Yemini 'clerk' was mainly using Facebook to rant. I don't even think he was a Imam in the traditional sense - more like a wannabe cleric. Not very unlike Sciforums members and posts TTYTT. I mean, other than whine about the US, he didn't actually DO anything did he???

    I DO NOT want my government 'targeting' US Citizens for liquidation - - regardless of the reasons. I'll take my chances with the Terrorists living in caves with their goats...
     
  11. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,391
    And the would-be terrorists he was looking to proseletyze to mainly use such outlets to get their sermons. Welcome to the 21st century.

    And his audience wasn't Muslims in the traditional sense - more like wannabe religious terrorists.

    Except for the part where he was a known high-level member of an international terrorist organization who was actually materially involved in the planning of terrorist attacks, you mean.

    He joined an actual terrorist organization and helped them execute actual terrorist attacks.

    Nobody "wants" that. But people also don't want US citizens joining paramilitary organizations and waging war on the rest of us. Warfare is kind of a bitch when it comes to confronting nations with hard choices like that.
     
  12. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,119
    Correct.

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    Until a person is proven of at least breaking a law, spreading ideas is not against the law.
     
  13. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,119
    And no, his son was not "collateral damage," his son was a primary receptacle of those ideas and would have been a fanatical receptacle of those ideas once the global state assassinated his father. He was a primary, though innocent, target as well. The apparatus is evil, and it is out of control.
     
  14. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,119
    This is a well known fiction. Come off it already. Talk about conspiracy theories. That whole, "WAR ON TERROR" . . .

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  15. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,391
    Perhaps you can explain to us, then, what the administration's motive was in targetting Al-Awlaki. Or at least provide some backing for your claim that the guy wasn't affiliated with Al Qaeda, nor involved in recruiting or planning.

    Without resorting to some absurd conspiracy theory, preferably.
     
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    I'm sure they had their reasons. Were they seriously worried this douche would 'harm the United States'? Well, that depends on how you define 'harm'? Set a precedent that might some day in the future interrupt our oil supply? That I can believe. As for preaching 'hate' against the US on Facebook. There's nothing illegal in doing that. It's actually protected by our Constitution.

    I'll take my chances with the goat f%cker than the US government.

    I mean, the goat f%cker doesn't take my toothpaste at the airport.
    The goat f%cker doesn't force me to carry my 'papers' /Passport when entering the US.
    The goat f%cker doesn't coerce 1/3 of my income directly and the Gods only know how many untold %s every which way.
    The goat f%cker doesn't force me to pay to fill out paperwork to import my own God damn property (car) and then regulate me every which way if I want to drive it in the commons.
    The goat f%cker doesn't force me to 'claim' up 2500mL of alcoholic containing beverages.


    Yes, I'll bitch slap down The goat f%cker if he stands between me and my freedom, but, unfortunately my fellow Cattle seem quite happy keeping me right along with them in the stall. I mean, have you licked the farmers hand. Gee o golly Gee he pats your head and gives you a hand full of HFCS feed pellets.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2012
  17. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,194
    If you hate it here so much then stop bitching and move already.
     
  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    I'm typing this from Japan - I was referring to some earlier incidences. Not that there's anywhere to go, the entire world lives in their cattle ranches with their farmers. The Aristocracy is back and milking the serfs worse than they ever have.

    And you complain I should LEAVE??? That's not right. I'm a US Citizen I have every right to bitch. YOU should be bitching right along with me! Unless you're in the top 0.1% which I doubt you are. The Government and the Central Bankers see you as a Cow to be milked and slaughtered. You should at the very least APPLAUD MY BITCHING! Even if you disagree. It's people like me, who buck the system and chaff under the weight of it, that make it a better place for people like you who take your liberty for granted. (if you indeed do).

    Think of it like this. Did you see the new North Korean 'Dear leader' and his photo-ops the other day? Do you think he really gives two flying f%cks about the North Korean people? NO! Recall the photo-op of GW Bush Jr on a USS Destroyer claiming we had 'Won the War on Terror'. Do you think he gives two flying f%cks about the thousands of Citizens who have died in the wars he and Cheney trumped up? NO!

    Did you see how quickly Obama took down Bin Laden? Ever wonder why they didn't do it sooner? Why didn't Bush do it? The reason is they didn't want to kill him. They wanted a Oogy Boogy man out there to play off the ignorance Citizen mass / Cattle Ranch to herd up with bull shit like the Patriot Act. Many US politicians would like nothing better than to deprive you of every right you have.

    Have you seen Obama repeal this insidious act since killing Osama Bin Satan? NO!
    They don't care about you or your safety, you are just there to milk like the rest of the Cattle.

    If THAT doesn't piss you off enough to even bitch, well, I hope you like living in your stall because it's going to get smaller and more confined in there.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2012
  19. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,194
    Read post #40, I don't want to repeat myself.

    They didn't find Bin Laden till now because they couln't find him till now. Really they got lucky. I don't understand how people say that our government is stupid, then they somehow think that they could orchestrate a conspiricy like this. The correct answer is that they ARE STUPID. We don't elect the best and brightest to office, we elect the best looking and most popular.

    Osama Bin Lauden has not been a relivent figure in the terrorist world except as a figurehead for a long time now, probably due to the fact that he was in hiding. Why would we repeal the act if we took down someone who wasn't really doing much anymore? It's not we caught bin laudin and every terrorist in world just gave up or something.
     
  20. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    I'm not suggesting a conspiracy in terms of helping to hid him, I'm saying they purposely stopped looking. Bush himself said as much. Sure they dragged in some dipshit every now and again but I think they like having a Bin Laudin. It no different than the Romans dragging out 'The Barbarians' (Marius did this to justify his reelection as proconsul past the limit).

    We're still living under the Patriot Act (just the name makes me feel I need a shower).
     
  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    That is crazy. Citizenship confers full protection under the US Constitution with guarantees a trial by other Citizens and is NOT the prerogative of a Civil Servant POTUS or otherwise (that LAST person you'd want making a decision on life and death).
     
  22. Xotica Everyday I’m Shufflin Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    456
    All you do is peddle total bullshit and whine like a little schoolgirl menstrutating for the first time.

    The trove of intelligence removed from the bin-Laden compound in Abbottobad strongly points to a total falling out between Osama bin-Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri. Osama was in the midst of re-organizing al-Queda and Zawahiri was not included in the new organizational charts. The final straw appears to be a heated disagreement about the Arab Spring revolution in Egypt. Zawahiri had proposed massive suicide bombings in Tahrir Square to derail the Egyptian demands for open democracy and free elections. Zawahiri wanted nothing less for his birth country than a Talibanized Islamic state based solely on Shari'a Law. Osama forbade any such al-Queda operation.

    In conjunction with this internal turn of events and and unknown to Osama, the CIA was getting closer to the trusted courier in Pakistan who transferred written messages between Zawahiri (tribal areas) and Osama (Abbottabad). Zawahiri however, somehow became aware that the courier connection was probably compromised. He took strident measures to protect his end of the connection, yet he never informed Osama of this huge security breach and steadfastedly continued to use the compromised courier. When one connects all the intelligence dots, there is a strong odor of betrayal here.

    Obama ordered JSOC to begin planning a strike operation after satellite imagery determined (from the length of his shadow) that the mysterious man pacing behind the high compound walls in Abbottabad was well over six feet tall.
     
  23. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    As far as Osama bin Laden is concerned I don't have a problem with our team taking him out.

    As for assassinating a US Citizen. This I have a problem with.
    As for mudering his teenage son. Big problem.

    As for passing the Patriot Act - HUGE F*CKING PROBLEM.

    I read an interview in Time while on transit and when interviewed about the Patriot Act it was no longer about Terrorists it specifically said Terrorists AND Criminals. See how this shit works? They are never going to end the Patriot Act. And, 5 or 10 years there will be a new Patriot Act. It's exactly like Income Tax.

    Anyway, we live in your world so you should be happy. We won't live in a world like I'd like for generations. I'm thinking at least 5 generations. So, be happy. Our society will continue to decay and our Civil protections right along with it. Lucky you.
     

Share This Page