Obedience, schism, and a growing philosophy

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Tiassa, Dec 29, 1999.

  1. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    1,065
    Good questions. I think that the perspective of the Christian faith being an unfortunately unachievable idealism may actually help here, and is how I view the faith and all of it's teachings and laws. We are told that we will never achieve the ideal in it's entirety because of sin. Without any sin, which is a possible state of existence, which Jesus showed us, just not for us right now, the ideal would exist and it would be perfect. The perfect state of existence for humanity and everything else in the universe.

    Ok, given that, I view this scripture with the same perspective as I do the scripture regarding husbands and wives. The clergy has been given a lot of responsibility. With responsibility comes power. We all have power. The more we have, the more dangerous it is to use it unwisely. But if used wisely, you can do great and glorifying works in the name of God. No one is perfect, but that's no reason not to try is how I think about it. I do think that these writings are referring to denominationalism within the church. It fosters nothing but confustion, even violence, which I find unbelievable. There is only one word of God, and we should all seek the truth in it together. There is only one truth. Also, I think that ideally people should be able to have an open and honest relationship with clergy of the Church, and should be able to trust them to always be true to the word, and to always be intent upon your best interest as God sees it, that is to foster your relationship with God. So the clergy have to be worthy of the trust. A Christian invented the printing press ya know? Throughout history and to this very day you have been able to see the effects of sin inside and outside the church. The degree to which the ideal is manifested is dependent upon how much sin is factored into the equation, and that is always variable for an individual, but not variable if you look at it from a collective society throughout history to this day point of view. In other words, I will trust my clergy as much as he allows me to trust him. Same as with a husband and a wife. A wife will submit to a husband, to the degree that he is worthy of submission. To be in a position of responsibility such as this is quite a heavy load, but a very honorable one. I don't think that many people have done a good job of realizing how much power they really have. If we all realized exactly how much we really mattered, we would all behave very differently.

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    "ET phone home!"
    "Uh, hello Satan?"
    "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
     
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  3. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Truestory ....

    Wow ... you really are desperate.

    Jesus Christ by any name at all is still Jesus Christ ... I'm almost with you on that.

    If I call my God force Lucina, or Demeter, or Diana ... then the Goddess by any other name is still the Goddess.

    But I'll betcha we mean totally different things.

    And I will offer you this smile

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    , since you did manage to surprise me with Jesus by any other name.

    It's progress.
    That's good.
    Don't lose hold of that idea, so you'll be ready when it winds up and smacks you in the head like it did many of us when we put two and two together and realized it did NOT equal eighteen.

    thanx
    Tiassa

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    The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)
     
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  5. ISDAMan Thank You Jesus! Registered Senior Member

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    tiassa,

    Have you ever read Steven Brust? You are the sci-fi & fantacy type no doubt? Perhaps, you are into the games?

    Just wondering,
    ISDAMan
     
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  7. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    tiassa,

    Your feelings of anger, hostility, contempt and resentment which you have been directing at me the past couple of days are deep into what I'll call the "ugly" stage.

    I don't participate in that kind of scene. So, I am removing myself from it until such time as I see that you can behave in a civilized manner.

    May the peace of the Lord, Jesus Christ, be with you always, tiassa!
     
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Truestory ....

    So sorry to see ya go. But thanx for the attitude assessment, Mom.

    After all, you've been such a Warm Fuzzy, for your own part.

    And I'm quite sure that the Lord will get around to giving me peace once His own people get around to being peaceful. It's all in the priorities.

    --Tiassa

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    The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)
     
  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,883
    ISDAMan--

    I'm quite familiar with Mr Brust. Quite familiar indeed. He's loosely a part of a running saga that I hope to wrap up by getting drunk in Minneapolis on St Patrick's Day.

    I met him once at a convention ... dare say he's exactly what you might expect, only moreso.

    But he's one of about three sci-fi/fantasy authors I read with any sense of regularity.

    As to the games ... I saw a game set for Jhereg for the first time not too long ago. Surprised the heck out of me. But I haven't played it.

    If you haven't, check out the music that goes with it all. Boiled in Lead did the soundtrack for "The Gypsy", and has recorded at least two songs Brust has co-written, and then there's two related bands that I think Brust played in, but I don't think those albums are in press right now. Oh, and "A Rose". Brust made a solo album that's apparently a Shatner-esque performance. Also, Emma Bull, who wrote "Freedom & Necessity" with him has a band called Flash Girls that rocks pretty cool. There was, and still is, I think, something weird going on in Minneapolis with artists. (Incidentally, Jane Yolen wrote a song for Boiled in Lead's drummer, for yet another fantasy reference. I think one of the band members is her son.)

    Umm ... Omnium Records, I think, is the label with all the music. Geez, I feel like I'm on a talk-show, doing "The Plug". I think it's http://www.omnium.com

    --Tiassa

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    The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)
     
  10. Lori Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Tiassa,

    Feel free to argue with me if you want to.

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    I don't have any warm-fuzzies? Was it you that used the analogy of faith being like training wheels on a bike? I think a much more appropriate analogy of faith would be like taking off a pair of rose colored glasses that you didn't know you had on. Go figure?

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    "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

    I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.
     
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,883
    Lori--

    Warm Fuzzies notwithstanding, 'twas not I who offered the training-wheel analogy. But I do remember that one ....

    I like the analogy of taking OFF the rose-colored glasses. But I feel like I'm left standing at the edge of one more question: what did you (figurative "you") see BEFORE you realized you were wearing the glasses?

    I think the analogy definitely works, even if I'm assuming the perspective I'm asking. But that I'm assuming it tells me someone can interpret it from another perspective, and create a valid, opposing idea. Kind of a notion of whether the faith is saving you from yourself or from the world around you, as each form of desperation regards the world around you differently (again ... figurative "you").

    Making any sense, I hope?

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    thanx,
    Tiassa

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    The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)
     
  12. Lori Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    I saw pain, felt pain, lacked understanding, so I went on a quest for truth. I didn't want to admit where it was that the pain came from and why it was impossible to reconcile without becoming hardened. You will note I'm sure that I am still trying to shake off my hard shell that was developed before. So I looked EVERYWHERE else first, and nothing made sense. The Bible makes sense to me, like math and science do. So when I saw that it did, and I couldn't deny it any longer, then I prayed, and Jesus took my rosey glasses off, and ouch, that hurt! Well at first anyway. It's kind of like a double-edged sword in that it really sucks to find out how f'd up the world and you yourself could really end up getting, but then when you realize that even so, there is forgiveness and mercy and salvation because of His grace, there is a peace that you find that exists no where else. So it's wierd in that you actually become much more acutely aware of all of the sin in the world, but you actually feel less pain. Not that you don't feel sorrow, but that's not the kind of pain I'm talking about. Irreconcilable pain becomes reconcilable, and as it still may bring a tear, it does not bring destruction. Your entire perspective changes regarding it. You know where it comes from and why, and you hate the sin, and forgive and love the sinner, and as it still may sadden you somewhat, you do not spend the rest of your life carrying it around saying "why do I feel this way? Why did they do that to me? Why is life unfair? Why is it hard? Why am I so unhappy? Why am I crying? Why am I so angry? Who am I even angry at? You don't hold grudges anymore. Poof! That doesn't mean you have to be best buddies with everyone who's out to get you, but in your heart, things change toward that person. No more "what did I do wrong? What did I do to deserve this?" When you know bleepin' well you didn't deserve it. My atheist brother said to me once, "How can you believe in a God when children are abused, and get hit by cars, and die of terrible diseases, and blah, blah, blah?" Well, ironically, my answer to that is that is WHY I DO believe in God! Something has to explain that, and the Bible does a bang up job of it.

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    "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

    I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.
     
  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,883
    Lori ...

    I think I read you.

    And if I do, I'm familiar with the sensation. But I didn't call it Jesus. That, fundamentally, might be the entirety of the difference between myself and, say, the next person.

    Have you seen the movie "Airplane"? When Robert Stack takes off his sunglasses, and there's another pair underneath? That's basically what I experience on a regular basis. I laughed most of the way through the US effort in Kosovo. It isn't that I found the idea of what had happened or what was happening in that moment funny. But it is wickedly funny to me that society think's it's come so damn far and this is the best it can do. Now, maybe that's deflecting the issue from my soul's consideration, but with modern media these days, just how much bad news can my poor soul take? Even a bitter laugh tastes better than lament. And after a while, you don't just forgive by mandate. You realize that forgiveness is not even necessary. For me to forgive someone implies that I have the authority to judge their actions.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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    The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)
     

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