Obviously FUNNY contradictions of the Bible

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Flash, Jan 1, 2000.

  1. Searcher Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    651
    TS,

    The way I interpret it, Matthew 5:22 states that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause (can't imagine this, myself) is in danger of the same judgement as one who kills. It goes on to state that anyone who slings insults at his brother is in danger of facing the judicial courts. The final warning in this verse is that anyone who accuses another of the misuse of true wisdom is in danger of going to hell.

    Um, seems to me that in Matthew 23:17 Jesus was accusing the scribes and Pharisees of misusing true wisdom. But then I guess since Jesus was God, that's okay. Do as I say, not as I do...

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  3. Flash Registered Senior Member

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    Tab,
    Thank you. I won't let it.

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    When I have more time I will give more examples.

    Searcher,
    Yes!!! That's exactly right! The do as I say not as I do.

    TS,
    That is the very thing I have tried to point out to you. Why do you refuse to compare what Jesus (matt 5:22) said with the other scriptures I pointed out? This a sure case of do as I say..not as I do! Now who is blind?
    If "God" doesn't want us to kill..then he shouldn't give us that example now..should he?
     
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  5. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    Thanks tab and Searcher,

    Alleluia!!! Me thinks tab's got it!

    Searcher, it seems that you are reading things into each which are not present.

    Even so, given your interpretation, Jesus would be "informing" the Scribes and Pharisees as to the foolishness of "their truth", not "accusing"... Do you dare see the difference?

    By the way, I thought that you, above all others here, would appreciate the fact that Jesus actually taught "against" the importance of "tithing" which continues to be stressed today in most churches... Why aren't you doing the happy dance now?

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  7. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    Flash,

    Before we go any further, I really need to know:

    tab' seems to understand the difference. Searcher did not respond directly. What is your answer? Please?
     
  8. Flash Registered Senior Member

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    771
    TS,
    Maybe not... less then I did...BUT, what of the other scriptures that I spoke of that would be a "do as I say not as I do type of thing????? This is important..something which you KEEP avoiding. How can God/Jesus possibly justify what they are doing and then turn around and "preach" against it???
    Can you not see how this just doesn't jive?

    [This message has been edited by Flash (edited January 02, 2000).]
     
  9. Searcher Registered Senior Member

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    651
    TS,

    Sorry if you thought I hadn't responded directly to your question. Let me state it this way: I understand what you are claiming the difference is between those two verses, but as you pointed out, I tend to see things quite differently. Please allow me to quote Matthew 5:22 directly from my KJV:

    22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

    To interpret the first part of this verse, I looked to the previous verse to explain what is meant by "the judgment":

    21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

    My interpretation of the first part of verse 22 then, is that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause is in danger of the same judgment as one who kills.

    Onto the second part - to interpret this, I needed to know two things: 1) what does "Raca" mean, and 2) what is meant by "the council"? According to a book I have called, "Guideposts Family Topical Concordance", "Raca" is simply "a term of insult", and "the council" is "the Jewish Sanhedrin". Now, to figure out what the "Jewish Sanhedrin" was, I looked it up in the glossary of another book I have called, "The Bible Throughout the Ages", and it turns out that it was the "High Court of Jewish law active in Jesus' time". So far so good? Okay, so my interpretation of the second part of this verse is that anyone who insults his brother may have to answer to the courts for it.

    Now for the third part of the verse in question - to interpret this, I need to know what is meant by the term "fool". Again, according to the Guideposts Family Topical Concordance, fools are those who "misuse true wisdom". So I interpret the third part of verse 22 to mean anyone who accuses another of misusing true wisdom is in danger of going to hell.

    If I've read things into it that aren't there, then I've certainly gone to some trouble to do so, wouldn't you say?

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  10. Searcher Registered Senior Member

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    651
    TS,

    Yeah - I'm doing the "happy dance"! This also helps to illustrate a point I made in another thread, and that is that anyone can pervert any of the messages in the Bible as long as they proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God. That's the key to getting Christians to do whatever you want, and that's what almost all churches do when it comes to the issue of tithing.

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  11. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    1,122
    Flash,

    I understand that you "believe" that because God/Jesus Christ does things which we, as humans, have been told not to do that you consider it to be contradictory in some sense.

    What I think you fail to realize, though, is that God came to us in the form of Jesus Christ to instruct us about the Truth... part of the truth is that there are certain things reserved for God's judgement. There are things that we, as mortal humans, should not take upon ourselves to decide. For example: Taking it upon ourselves to determine when our mortal life or the mortal lives of others should end is a punishable human offense, because such matters are reserved for God's judgement, the God who determined to give us the gift of life in the first place.

    What I will say to you, and I truly hope that it helps, is that mortal life ends. As we have been informed by God, WHEN such life should end for a particular individual is not up to us. Such judgements are reserved for God and God alone. In order for eternal everlasting life to begin, our mortal lives MUST end.

    WHEN that should happen is a matter for God to decide, not us.

    Yes, we have the free-will to make such decisions for ourselves in this mortal life, if we choose. However, like anything we do in this life, God has informed us that choices come with consequences. Depending on WHAT we choose to do, the consequence might be "good" or the consequence might be "bad."

    So, yes. God is telling us that there are some things which God will do which we must not do. For one, God is telling us that we must not take the life of another. However, it appears that God is taking lives??? I say, so it appears, because another thing which God goes on to do, WHICH WE CANNOT DO, is to give eternal everlasting life, to each and every one of us. Logically speaking, THAT is how God can justify doing thing which we are told not to do.

    God CAN do this, because God is God. We are forbidden from doing this because we are man, NOT God.

    What we CAN do and what God does WANTS us to do, is to focus on the goal common to both man and God. That is, to share everlasting spiritual life together.



    [This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 02, 2000).]
     
  12. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    1,122
    Searcher,

    Thank you, truly, for the explanation. I think, however, that you are still reading things into the first passage which are not there... Or, perhaps I should say, that you are missing the overall message of teaching against "anger" in the first passage.

    In no way was Jesus' teaching about anger meant to include benign use of the word "fool". Maybe a sticking point, but that was the basis of Flash's original claim of contradiction.

    I see that you have differentiated the two lessons to a certain degree... thank you.

    Hopefully, such insight will be beneficial not only to those who try to discredit the Word by claiming false contradictions, but also, beneficial to others who have been swayed to tithe through hypocricy.

    I think, actually, that we are making progress!

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  13. Flash Registered Senior Member

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    771
    TS,

    Yes, I do! Doesn't the bible state that those who accept JC as their personal savior
    then become children of God? So then God would be a father of these children?
    I realize that there are earthly parents who do tell their children.."we can do this..but you cannot" I ask you, Ts.. Do you not think that is a bunch of bologna? Should that REALLY justify what they are doing? Just because they are our parents..does this give them the right to be hypocrites?? Should this give God the right to be one just because he is "God"??

    Does it state in the bible that there are things he will do that we must not do, or is it simply implied?

    Wait a minute here... I am saying that it is odd and not right for him to say or imply
    "do not do this" when he turns around and does some of these things right and left(like.. KILL)

    I have not read in the bible where he says,
    "do not give eternal life for only I can do this".

    This is how God can justify doing the things we are told not to??????????????
    Oh, so because he is God he can go AGAINST
    his own rules/laws (SIN) like there is no tomorrow? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me???????? *disbelief* And you STILL choose to believe this is ok???? Wow, and you say I am the one who has been brain-washed?

    I'm sorry, TS..but I fail to see where there is any logic to what you are thinking. I am just sitting here with my mouth wide open in disbelief.
     
  14. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

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    4,795
    I just came upon a clearer interpretation of the meaning of 'fool', MAT 5:22, in a Greek bible.
    Here is my own translation.

    'He who is very angry with his brother, without seriously just cause, is committing an offence (in the eyes of God) so serious, that it would warrant to be tried in a human court of law if it were possible and is condemned by God.
    He who calls his brother 'stupid' with aloofness and coldness of heart is committing a more serious offence, comparable to crimes which are usually judged by the highest courts of the land.
    He, who with hatred and malice in his heart calls his brother 'fool', will be guilty of an offence so serious that he is condemned to the fires of hell.'

    Now to me, this verse uses these examples of anger, aloofness, coldness of heart, hatred and malice to demonstrate the abhorrence of how these feelings should be viewed by the Christians, as they were meant to set an example. And more importantly, these kind of feelings/actions go against the very fundamental Christian ethic of 'love'.

    But, you say (ataab!) how can you be condemned to the fires of hell merely for calling some-one a fool, especially if they deserved it, Christian or not. This God must be so cruel.
    Forgive me if up to now I've been sounding like an apologetic but while researching and replying to this topic I gained an insight into a deeper meaning of things, which I shall endeavour to explain.

    As you may or may not know I have always been a spiritual searcher, an agnostic, a Christian by choice, an almost atheist and an open minded, open hearted spritual,observer/learner in that order.

    One of the things I have personally suspected for a long time is that deep, negative feelings are, 1. transferable(we are all spiritually connected, so strong, emotional thoughts and feelings can be 'sent' to others. Hence the power of prayer, wish/meditation, curses, magik, religious icantations and rituals etc) and 2. self damaging unless expressed and possibly even more damaging when expressed.
    Therefore, things to avoid in a peaceful, loving, healthy and caring society, which is the ideal everybody presumably strives for.

    One of the other things I have suspected, is that profound and fundamental spiritual truths do and have existed in every bit of religious, spiritual and folkloric writing from the beginning of time.Including the bible.
    And to me, the most important and all encompassing truth, is the truth of love. I would love for some of you to post some other original interpretations of love but the one in the bible sounds mighty good to me, check out 1Corinthians 13 1:13.The NIV bible is modern and excellent.
    If everybody practised the basic tenets of love as implied here you've created a perfect society. Not only that but 'everything will become clearer, you will understand and you will put away childish things', that is, you will go through a spiritual transformation, you will gain a deeper wisdom and you would have grown out of senseless, selfish Earthly materialism and exploitation.

    To try and get to the point of this and the reason why Jesus was so hard is that he 'knew' about this phenomenon. He was, after all, extremely wise and enlightened.But he had to use the basis of the Jewish God and religion to put his points across, otherwise nobody would have listened to him, likening him to a magician or sorcerer, who would have been abbhored in that society.

    As regards to the other reference of 'fool' I will make an analogy.

    Imagine if you had to train some people how to use a complicated and dangerous machine.
    You would start off by giving them a tour of the machine, explaining the different functions of the knobs and dials.
    Because the machine can be very dangerous you tell the new recruits that they must never touch some specific switches or push certain knobs.
    No sooner have you given them your instructions, when somebody pushes a knob that you've told him never to touch, what do you do?
    You take immediate action to avert a disaster, you begin to push knobs and pull switches yourself, the same ones you told the others never to touch. The difference, is that you know what you're doing and you are only touching those things which you yourself banned, because it's the only way to stop the imminent disaster.
    While the other person intentionally abused his responsibility to the machine, the factory and the people in it.

    I don't know if that makes any sense, your reactions will tell.

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  15. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    Flash,

    Were you aware of the fact that you, yes YOU are questioning the motives and intentions of Jesus? You assume anger. Well, what a big ol' surprise. Let me ask you this....when a good and loving parent disciplines a child for their own benefit, then are they doing it out of anger? Hint, I already answered the question. You know, TS came out here and jumped all over your little "earth-shattering contradictions", and explained each and every one of them to a tee, and oh my, what a surprise, you still refuse to get it. You REFUSE explanation, right? That way you don't have to admit that you may have misunderstood. I also think that she did a VERY good job of making it TOTALLY obvious that you take everything out of context, you pretend that you somehow "forgot" all of the other and most obvious messages of the Bible when you're all acting like "duh, I don't understand". Well maybe you're not putting enough thought into it, huh? Maybe a little common sense, and some serious study and contemplation of your own volition would help you. Oh, that's right, the only reason you even open the Bible is to find your trumped up contradictions. Well what a surprise it is that you haven't learned JACK! I'm sorry, but I think TS just made that sooooooooo painfully obvious. Good job TS.

    ------------------
    "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

    I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.
     
  16. truestory Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Flash,

    You ask how can I accept that there are certain things which God can rightfully do which I cannot do without sinning?

    If I were to die in my sleep tonight, does it mean that God has done wrong by taking my life? No.

    If a jealous ex-boyfriend were to take it upon himself to murder me in my sleep, does it mean that he has done wrong? Yes.

    God can take life and it is not wrong because God has authority, knowledge and wisdom in such matters. That is why such matters are reserved for God.

    I, on the other hand, do not have such authority, knowledge and wisdom and, if I take it upon myself to commit such acts which are reserved for God, I have done wrong.

    I accept God's authority on such matters because God is more able than I, more knowledgable than I and much wiser in the judgement of such matters than I.

    I do not consider this to be hypocricy. Rather, I consider it to be common sense.

    Let me compare that to a human condition:

    I am not a heart surgeon. I do not have the authority, knowledge, wisdom or skills to perform heart surgery on another human being. If I did decide to perform such an act, it would be wrong and I would have to suffer the consequences of my actions.

    Does that mean that noone can perform heart surgery? No, it does not. Why? Because there are those who have the authority, knowledge and wisdom to rightfully perform heart surgery on another human being.

    If a heart surgeon performed heart surgery, it would not be considered wrong.

    If I were to perform heart surgery, it would be considered wrong.

    There is a difference between the human condition and the Godly condition, though. Where I might be able to become a heart surgeon in my lifetime, giving me the right to perform heart surgery, I can never become God and will never have the right to perform those things which are reserved for God... without having done wrong.



    [This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 03, 2000).]
     
  17. truestory Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Thanks, Lori.

    Actually, there were a couple of so-called contradictions left in Flash's list which I did not touch on. Once Flash wanted to discuss "number one" which I had responded to, the focus went there. I could respond to the remaining two in detail if necessary, though.

    Thanks again!

    Yes, tab'

    Your analogy makes much sense. The trainer had the authority, knowledge and wisdom to know which knobs, etc... needed to be touched, turned, whatever and WHEN. The trainees did not. Does this make the trainer a hypocrit for touching the knobs after having told the trainees not to touch the knobs? Absolutely not.

    Thanks.
     
  18. Flash Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    771
    Lori,
    Look, you expect people just to jump on the train and accept every little thing about the bible, God, and Jesus??? Did you not put ANY thought into becomming a christian?
    Did you not check things out? If not..then why the heck not?!?!?!?!
    For me..in my own personsal opinion.. it is not so much anger as I just am sick of hearing how great, loving, forgiving, merciful, ect..that God/Jesus is..when others do not even look at the things they have done. Sure sure...TS, blew my little
    butt out of the water, huh? Then WHY do I know what I know??? Why do I feel what I feel???? Cause my sources tell me different.
    Just because they do not line up with yours doesn't give you, TS, or any other christian the right to say that Skye, Searcher, Tab, myself, or any other person that doesn't happen to exactly believe the way all of you do...are wrong. Not one of you can prove your beliefs...if any of you can..do it.
    But know what... I'd say that I do not get a reply to that...I bet you all ignore that all the way...cause when it comes down to it..you can't.
     
  19. Flash Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    771
    TS,
    There is a difference between a person dying of an illness or whatever ..and a person being MURDERED/KILLED by God. Don't you think?
    Also..TS and Lori.. what would you think if you read in a newspaper that a parent killed their child all because the kid needed to suffer because they had disobeyed?????
    Can the both of you not see how you are trying to make excuses for every little thing God had done in the Bible?
     
  20. Lori Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Flash,

    I'm sorry, you just frustrate the bleep out of me is all. And fair question ok? About taking things on faith, which I did not do when addressing the Bible or my faith. Faith on faith? Sounds contradictory, huh? Well, I did very well have some questions that I needed answers to about it. A lot of things didn't make sense to me either, and seemed contradictory and egotistical or harsh or whatever. But what I did not do was attempt to understand the Bible by LOOKING for contradictions or whatever. What I did was say to myself, "ok, now I know that this stuff doesn't make a hill of beans worth of sense to me, but since oh a GAZILLION people or so have dedicated their entire lives to the faith, and it's changed so many people's lives, there must be SOMETHING to it." I found it difficult, as smarty-pants as I am, to believe that knowing as how I knew virtually nothing about the faith (say compared to a theologian or priest or monk or whatever) that I could possibly make an informed decision without taking an honest look and try my best to understand. I looked for understanding. You look for contradiction and confusion. Sorry buddy, but I'm not any smarter than you are.

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    You just aren't trying and you know it. It's not easy to understand everything about the faith, but it's certainly not as hard as you make it either. I also am very well aware of why you choose to take this perspective. That's why the whole situation is so alarming.

    ------------------
    "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

    I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.
     
  21. Flash Registered Senior Member

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    771
    Lori,
    Ok, I understand what you are trying to say.
    There is no way in heck that I could ever have faith in something that I know is wrong.
    Would you follow Jim Jones if he were alive today? Why not? Let's forget the fact that you are a christian... would you?
    There is your answer.
    P.S.
    Don't you think you frustrate me too???

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  22. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    Flash,

    I think you've got it backwards. Your intent in this thread, from the beginning, seems to have been to discredit Jesus Christ (to say that He and those who follow Him are wrong based on erroneous information put forth by you as "contradictions"). What I have pointed out to you is that you are misinformed... that is, your conclusion is based on a lack of knowledge of the truth.

    The truths are there for you to see, Flash, however, as I stated previously, you cannnot see them if they are looked upon with malice of heart.
     
  23. Flash Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    771
    TS,
    There you go again with that "malice of heart" statement. ugh! You are so missing my intentions.

    Yeah, well..DARE you read all the things your God is credited for doing in my new thread???? LOL..Didn't think so.
     

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