On "Cancel Culture"

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Jul 20, 2020.

  1. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    Isn't this similar to saying that anytime you find yourself at the crossroads of Tax The Rich and Inequality there's probably a left-winger nearby?

    It kind of suggests that there is no validity in having a left wing point of view. It also suggests that if you disagree with me you must be either wrong or extreme and that there is no center position that disagrees with the Tax The Rich premise.

    I'm also not sure what Trump, Ye and Nick Fuentes have to do with any serious discussion in the first place. We know a clown show when we see it but I don't think there are many conclusions to draw from such a display.

    (Who is Tim Camp?)
     
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  3. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Someone else entirely, and a typo on my part. Tim Pool is a right-wing podcaster.

    (sigh)

    Anyway, yeah, thanks.
     
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    How It's Going

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    Something else: Click because you think you can.

    Ben Collins↱, this morning:

    This InfoWars interview with Kanye West is getting so thoroughly antisemitic that even Alex Jones is pushing back, after West has spent the last few minutes accusing Jews of being pedophiles. "I think most Jews are great people," Jones says. "But I agree there's a Jewish mafia."

    Think of it this way: Even Alex Jones can't take it.

    Collins continues:

    Honestly I'm not sure what to do here. I cannot tell you how unbelievably antisemitic this Kanye West Infowars interview is. This is straight up, old fashioned Naziism being mainstreamed from celebrities who are in the ear of the last U.S. president.

    Getting a little horrifying. On Infowars, Kanye having a pretend conversation with Bibi Netanyahu (whose name he said he earlier learned two weeks ago). He brought a prop on a stick to argue with "Bibi" like a puppet, mockingly saying "I'm gonna take your family away from you."

    I cannot believe I'm saying this, but Alex Jones seems uncomfortable here, trying to get Kanye to take off the mask that covers his entire face and to at least slow down on the hatred of Jews.

    "I'm not on that whole Jew thing," Jones says.

    This is just a shockingly antisemitic interview. However bad you think it is from the random quotes from Kanye today, it's considerably worse. Overt Naziism that is making Alex Jones himself squirm.

    And here, Collins cites NBC News colleague Marisa Kabas↱, who observed:

    ALEX JONES: You're not Hitler. You're not a nazi. You don't deserve to be described as that.

    KANYE: I see good things about Hitler, also.

    Her thread includes audio of Alex Jones trying to set up a segment on George Soros, in which Kanye can be heard responding, "I like Hitler." Again↑, someone close to him needs to intervene; if we are to worry about his mental health, then we might wonder at how the rest of his life spent in infamy as a noncompetent toady who betrayed his community might affect his psychological circumstance. Yes, it feels hilarious, in its own way, that Ye went after Ben Shapiro, even more so that he cribbed from a white nationalist, but what actually makes the shekel joke funny is a matter of priorities: That it devours Kanye West is either funny or significant of his psychological condition, but it can't quite be both. "We gotta stop dissing the Nazis all the time," proclaimed the Yeezy one, who explained, "They did good things, too."

    And if it is hard to imagine what the end of Kanye's career would look like, it is one thing to wonder at his determination to test that precipice, yet if he is swallowed by the abyss and his pop star career is utterly destroyed, how long will people remember how it went before he becomes an icon of the cancel culture complaint? How long before we hear about how Yeezy was so unfairly canceled by snowflake liberals and some Jewish world-domination conspiracy?

    Historically, we've already been through the bit where people keep pushing on something just for the sake of being obnoxious and making some personal point of declaring one's own empowerment, and it turns out that the reason a lot of those people who weren't supremacist but just proving what's wrong with feminists, liberals, and snowflakes, actually believed the stuff they were pushing in order to be obnoxious. We've already learned this lesson.

    There will be, in all this, a lesson for the discussion about cancel culture; we just have to wait to find out what it is. If Ye is destroyed, then we have a boundary marker; if not, then we laugh anew at how petulant is the complaint about cancel culture.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    @MarisaKabas. "ALEX JONES: You're not Hitler. You're not a nazi. You don't deserve to be described as that. KANYE: I see good things about Hitler, also. (just now on Infowars)". (thread) Twitter. 1 December 2022. Twitter.com. 1 December 2022. https://bit.ly/3B1k9hF

    @oneunderscore__. "This InfoWars interview with Kanye West is getting so thoroughly antisemitic that even Alex Jones is pushing back, after West has spent the last few minutes accusing Jews of being pedophiles. 'I think most Jews are great people,' Jones says. 'But I agree there's a Jewish mafia.'" (thread) Twitter. 1 December 2022. Twitter.com. 1 December 2022. https://bit.ly/3H3xYQn
     
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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    How It's Going

    Activist and researcher Jason Campbell↱ offers two images from right-wing media outlet Newsmax, observing, "These segments ran back-to-back."

    The first features a chyron reading, "Florida bill to end Democratic Party".

    The chyron in the second image reads, "Florida's fight against cancel culture".

    Reminder↗: Cancel culture asserts on behalf of anti-egalitarianism and radical exclusionism. This is the counterrevolutionary implication: Cancel culture is a complaint against the disruption of empowerment to cancel. Florida is helping make the point.

    Some prefer an anti-liberal narrative to describe cancel culture, and once again their beliefs are frustrated and demeaned by the conservative attitudes they seek to protect.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    @JasonSCampbell. "These segments ran back-to-back. Beyond parody." Twitter. 3 March 2023. Twitter.com. 3 March 2023. https://bit.ly/3kJnBsa
     
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    "Cancel Culture" Just Says No to Tennessee

    Cancel culture struck the Volunteer State, yesterday, when a federal judge blocked a Tennessee law intended to criminalize actors and dancers who perform in clothing determined to be for a gender other than one's prescribed birth sex. That is to say, the latest anti-transgender law in Tennessee has been put on hold by a federal court. A Trump-appointed minister of wokeness—(er, ah, that would be a federal judge named Thomas Parker)—has apparently decreed without basis that some woke propaganda called the "United States Constitution" thinks it can tell Tennessee what to do.

    A federal judge has blocked Tennessee from enforcing S.B. 3, the “adult cabaret entertainment” law that criminalizes some drag performances, hours before the law was going into effect.

    U.S. District Judge Thomas L. Parker issued a temporary restraining order (TRO) that prohibits enforcement of the law by Gov. Bill Lee, Attorney General Jonathan Skrmetti, or the Shelby County district attorney for the next 14 days. Parker notes plans for future hearings in the coming days to schedule the next steps in the case.

    In issuing the temporary order, Parker — a 2017 Trump appointee to the bench — wrote:

    The United States Constitution—a law that is supreme even to the Tennessee General Assembly’s acts—has placed some issues beyond the reach of the democratic process. First among them is the freedom of speech. If Tennessee wishes to exercise its police power in restricting speech it considers obscene, it must do so within the constraints and framework of the United States Constitution. The Court finds that, as it stands, the record here suggests that when the legislature passed this Statute, it missed the mark.

    The lawsuit, filed on March 30, was brought on behalf of Friends of George’s, which the lawsuit describes as “a theatre company that produces drag-centric performances, comedy sketches, and plays.” The TRO request was also filed on March 30.


    (Geidner↱)

    Or, perhaps, we might shrug and say, yeah, that sounds about right. Remember, part of the point of these unconstitutional laws is to rally political support when they eventually fail. And if there was ever a grift with easier marks, it's probably an actual religion.

    It's also worth noting that the bit with passing unconstitutional laws and then getting angry when the Constitution does not automatically amend itself, nor judges impose an amendment for conservatives who would inflict these laws against society, is actually at least thirty years old, and works on these folks like they're new all over again.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Geidner, Chris. "Federal judge blocks Tennessee officials from enforcing law restricting drag". LawDork. 31 March 2023. LawDork.com. 1 April 2023. http://bit.ly/3MeH2EN
     
  9. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Cool! That will allow Bill Lee to get a few more drag shows in.

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  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    ¡"Cancel Culture" Strikes Again!

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    Trust me: Click for something.

    Texas became the latest victim of cancel culture after a woke federal judge said Llano County officials could not censor library content:

    A federal judge in Texas ruled that at least 12 books removed from public libraries by Llano County officials, many because of their LGBTQ and racial content, must be placed back onto shelves within 24 hours, according to an order filed Thursday.

    Seven residents sued county officials in April 2022, claiming their First and 14th Amendment rights were violated when books deemed inappropriate by some people in the community and Republican lawmakers were removed from public libraries or access was restricted.

    The lawsuit filed in the US District Court for the Western District of Texas in San Antonio claimed county officials removed books from the shelves of the three-branch public library system “because they disagree with the ideas within them” and terminated access to thousands of digital books because they could not ban two specific titles.

    Books ordered to return to shelves include “Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents” by Isabel Wilkerson, “They Called Themselves the K.K.K.: The Birth of an American Terrorist Group” by Susan Campbell Bartoletti and “Being Jazz: My Life as a (Transgender) Teen” by Jazz Jennings.

    The library system also is required to reflect these books as available in their catalog and cannot remove any books for any reason while the case is ongoing, US District Judge Robert Pitman said in his order.


    (CNN↱)

    Like I said, we just call it censorship↗.

    There are people who sometimes say vague things about what's wrong with not allowing yourself to hear opinions that disagree with you, or something like that, and that was never really what the problem was. Such admonition tends to look away from the detail of what people are actually saying. The last thirty years of conservative outrage about liberal elitists persecuting family values in flyover country and trying to shame people into silence until they are cancelled, or something, has always kind of been about this sort of stuff. So, remember: They are not silenced simply by being refused the power to silence others.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Elassar, Alaa, Taylor Romine, and Andy Rose. "Judge orders books removed from Texas public libraries due to LGBTQ and racial content must be returned within 24 hours". CNN. 1 April 2023. CNN.com. 1 April 2023. http://bit.ly/3lS1VuI
     
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Predecessor to "Cancel Culture" Failing

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    Chill: But they were okay with this part.

    When it was "banned" music or books, we didn't call it "cancel culture". That was always one of the big differences; it wasn't "cancel culture" until people who weren't part of the empowerment majority could effectively threaten boycotts.

    So it's probably not really "cancel culture" itself that is failing rightists, but its predecessor, which we generally referred to, quite simply, as censorship, or, as conservatives put it, voting with your wallet.

    These days, it's a little different. Futrelle↱ notes the latest scandal:

    Right-wingers are forever announcing boycotts of major corporations for their alleged “wokeness.” This past week, these culture warriors have started raising a stink about Bud Light after trans influencer Dylan Mulveny endorsed the blue-collar beer in a Tik-Tok video. “Get woke, go broke!” is their favorite slogan ....

    So, maybe encouraging rape isn't something the traditional empowerment majority will object to, but the appearance of Dylan Mulveny in a TikTok video has resulted in conservative calls for boycott, and even a celebrity mass-shooting↱ of the widely popular ethanol beverage.

    But reality kind of bites. Perhaps it's a fun slogan, but:

    There's just one problem with the whole idea of “get woke, go broke”: It's not true. Companies that “get woke” seem to be doing just fine; in fact, as a recent survey by Rolling Stone shows. The slogan, the magazine points out,

    allows MAGA country to believe that there is ongoing, massive backlash to products that acknowledge and celebrate marginalized communities. But the supposed boycotts never seem to be reflected in the bottom line.

    Rolling Stone looks at a number of targets of high-profile right-wing boycotts–from coffeemaker Keurig to Disney–and reports that many are recording record profits, opening up new factories, or otherwise showing signs of extreme non-brokeness.

    There is embittered chatter, out on the right wing, that the young people are too liberal, and the solution will be appropriate rightist political indoctrination of children¹, and as much as we ought to be able to write that off as just so much hot air, Republicans have made the point in recent yerars that we simply cannot afford to ignore it. And if the easy retort² is to suggest that the rightist alternative to better policies is indoctrination, well, the Governor of Mandatory Vaginal Penetration³ served it up on a silver platter.

    Two things about the rightist cancel culture in effect these days: It's not new, and it doesn't have the same traction it used to.

    It's easy to fret over that latter if you can't figure out the first part.

    Meanwhile, there is a reason the thieving, raping, murdering, supremacist policies of the conservative mainstream aren't popular, so it's true their dreams of canceling Anheuser-Busch look like petulant wanker fantasies. The question going forward: Why are antisocial people so shocked when society does not welcome their pretense of sociality? Honestly, there are plenty of certifiable APDs out there who get it, and that's part of why their antisociality is a disorder, and regardless of how they feel about it, they understand the basic difference. But this whole, 「Fuck you/Where are you going/Poor Me」 waffling between romantic imaginings of rebellious repulsion and actually wanting to be adored by the people, is stupid beyond offense.

    And then, yeah, yeah, yeah, what's that bullshit smokescreen, the kind of cancel culture in which leftists try to cancel those on the insufficiently-leftist leftists, yeah, well, when we can't tell the argument from what a Johnny Serial Number provocateur or bot has to say, it all reads like bullshit. We might wonder how that freedom of cacophony working out, but it was always dysfunctional according to design; it's a miserable result, but never really could have failed to be.

    In its way, what goes on in Florida, Tennessee, and Texas makes the point, as those states present a bacchanal of what was ostensibly cancelled. There are always differences between idyll and reality. But as I recall old arguments about how liberal paternalism and condescension drove sympathies rightward, it is impossible to ignore that the supremacism and hatred and greed flooding the land from conservative wellsprings is precisely what those totally notasupremacist, wiser-than-thou wags were protecting.

    But this thing, this cancel culture that was not called cancel culture until the exclusionists felt excluded for their decisions to exclude ... er ... right. The traditionalist exclusion that preceded "cancel culture" is now failing the traditionalists. And it's kind of for the same reasons the embittered chatter aspires to indoctrination. It should go without saying↱ that one really ought not need a list of reasons to avoid Bud Light, sometimes our priorities are telling.

    I keep trying to think, "Imagine [_____] shooting the shit out of a chicken sandwich", and just can't fill in the blank.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    ¹ Former Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker (R), in the wake of a state supreme court election, lamented↱ that, "Younger voters are the issue", blaming "years of radical indoctrination - on campus, in school, with social media, & throughout culture" that Repulbicans "have to counter … or conservatives will never win battleground states again".

    ² Actor Neil Hopkins↱ suggests, "Our policies suck and are super unpopular to educated young people - so we should get rid of education and stop young people from voting."

    ³ See "Misogyny and the Conservative Tradition"↗: "The thing about that, the media tried to make that sound like that was a crazy idea … It's just a cool thing out there."​

    @neilhopkins. "'Our policies suck and are super unpopular to educated young people - so we should get rid of education and stop young people from voting.'" Twitter. 7 April 2023. Twitter.com. 9 Apriul 2023. https://bit.ly/3nXcMUO

    @patriottakes. "Kid Rock shot up cases of Bud Light in an apparent response to the company’s partnership with a trans influencer." Twitter. 4 April 2023. Twitter.com. 9 April 2023. https://bit.ly/3mem6mJ

    @ScottWalker. "Younger voters are the issue. It comes from years of radical indoctrination - on campus, in school, with social media, & throughout culture. We have to counter it or conservatives will never win battleground states again. @yaf". Twitter. 6 April 2023. Twitter.com. https://bit.ly/3Gquuq3

    Futrelle, David. "Get woke, go broke? Not so fast". We Hunted The Mammoth. 9 April 2023. WeHuntedTheMammoth.com. 9 April 2023. https://bit.ly/3o0mi9H
     
  12. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Cancel Hard

    Allsion Gill↱ threads together the scale of the Bud Light backlash, listing all the products she can find that the magatude and terfs will need to skip out on:

    Budweiser, Bud Light, Budweiser Select, Budweiser American Ale, Bud Dry, Bud Ice, Bud Ice Light,Budweiser Brewmaster Reserve, Bud Light Lime, Budweiser & Clamato Chelada, Bud Light Clamato Chelada, Bud Extra, Michelob, Michelob Light, Michelob Honey Lager, Michelob AmberBock, Michelob Golden Draft, Michelob Golden Draft Light, Michelob Bavarian Wheat, Michelob Porter, Michelob Pale Ale, Michelob Dunkel Weisse, Michelob Ultra, Michelob Ultra Amber, Michelob Ultra Lime Cactus, Michelob Ultra Pomegranate Raspberry, Michelob Ultra Tuscan Orange, Busch, Busch Light, Busch Ice, Natural Light, Natural Ice, Bare Knuckle Stout, Anheuser World Lager, ZiegenBock, Ascent 54 (Colorado only), Redbridge (gluten-free), Rolling Rock, Landshark Lager, Shock Top, Skipjack Amber Lager, Wild Blue, Stella Artois, Sun Dog (spring), Beach Bum Blonde Ale (summer), Jack's Pumpkin Spice Ale (fall), Winter's Bourbon Cask (winter), O'Doul's, O'Doul's Amber, Busch NA, Budweiser NA, Budweiser NA Green Apple, 180 Blue, 180 Sport Drink, 180 Energy, 180 Red, 180 Blue Low Calorie, 180 Sugar Free, Stone Mill Pale Ale, Wild Hop Lager, Bacardi Silver, Peels, Tequiza, Tilt, Hoegaarden, Jupiler, Beck's, Boddingtons, Brahma, Quilmes, Hasseröder, Diebels, Löwenbräu, Spaten, Franziskaner, Oranjeboom, Dommelsch, Belle-Vue, Skol, Chernigivske, Paceña, Aguila, Club Colombia, Goose IPA, Bourbon County Brand Stout, 312 Urban Wheat Ale, Sofie, Toasted Lager, Hoptical Illusion, Mosaic Session IPA, Shore Thing, Apocalypse IPA, Joe IPA, Pub Beer, Pray for Snow, Space Dust IPA, The Immortal IPA, Superfuzz Blood Orange Pale, Men's Room Red, Golden Road Brewing, Wolf Pup Session IPA, Mango Cart, Get Up Offa That Brown, Heal the Bay IPA, Kilt Lifter, Hop Knot IPA, 8th Street Pale Ale, Peach Ale, Vanilla Porter, Avalanche Amber Ale, Agave Wheat, Hop Peak IPA, Vienna Lager, Eight Point IPA, Gold Leaf Lager, Striped Bass Pale Ale, Pernicious IPA, Freak of Nature Double IPA, Appalachia Session IPA, Lunatic Blonde, Hopadillo IPA, Love Street, Weekend Warrior Pale Ale, Rodeo Clown Double IPA, Spanglish Latin Lager, Mangolandia Blonde Ale, Veza Sur IPA, Tropicus Hazy Pale Ale, Widmer Brothers Hefe, Drop Tap Amber Ale, Imperial Hefe, Deadlift Imperial IPA, Hopcadia - NW IPA, Cold Waters Cold IPA, Juice Sunrise IPA, Green Skies Hazy IPA, White Gold Hazy Lager, Velvet Summer Apricot Wheat, OKTO Festival Ale, Brrr Hoppy Red, Wynwood's Father Francisco, La Rubia, Laces IPA, Pop's Porter, Caribbean Sour, Magic City, La Nueva, Lock On, Bohemian Rhaspberry, Cutwater Lime Margarita, Tiki Rum Mai Tai, Vodka Mule, Mango Margarita, Mango Margarita, Tequila Paloma, Strawberry Margarita, Pineapple Margarita, Spicy Pineapple Margarita, Peach Margarita, Ranch Water Lime, Ranch Water Watermelon, Ranch Water Prickly Pear, Long Island Iced Tea, White Russian, Spicy Bloody Mary, Tiki Rum Punch, Pina Colada, Rum Mojito, Whiskey Lemonade, Whiskey Mule, BABE Red, BABE Rosé, BABE Grigio, hi*ball grapefruit, hi*ball watermelon mint, hi*ball wild berry, hi*ball black berry, hi*ball lemon lime, hi*ball peach, hi*ball vanilla, Nütrl Fruit, Nütrl Lemonade, Nütrl Cranberry, Ritas Straw-ber-rita, Ritas Lime-a-rita, Ritas Mang-o-rita, Ritas Water-melon-rita
     
  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Follow-Up (re: #267↑ above)

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    Only one light: It hurts less to click.

    A federal judge recently victimized Texas, ordering Llano County to return censored books to library shelves.

    Yesterday, it emerged↱ that Llano County Commissioners will meet on 13 April to discuss closing the Llano County Library system.

    It's their only way to fight back against cancellation by the woke: If they can't arbitrarily censor the library, then they must close it.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    @SawyerHackett. "Wow. Two weeks ago a judge ordered the public library in Llano County, TX to return books banned by conservative activists. Now, this week county officials will meet to discuss eliminating the library entirely. More from @serrano_alej:". Twitter. 10 April 2023. Twitter.com. 11 April 2023. https://bit.ly/41mQwBU
     
  14. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    On the Depravity of Complaining About "Cancel Culture"

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    Can you feel it? Click to feel empty.

    Four paragraphs, from KCAL↱:

    The Los Angeles Police Department responded Thursday to a bomb threat made to Budweiser's Van Nuys factory.

    This threat coincides with other nationwide bomb threats allegedly made to other Budweiser factories this week as the company refuses to cut ties with the transgender influencer. Dylan Mulvaney.

    The partnership between Mulvaney and Bud Light has drawn criticism from conservatives on social media. Musicians Kid Rock and Travis Tritt have rallied to boycott Budweiser.

    It was reported Thursday, that a Missouri based Budweiser distributor canceled all planned appearances of the iconic Clydesdale horses, citing threats to its employees. The Clydesdales have long been featured in Budweiser commercials.

    The Clydesdales. American traditionalism just canceled the Clydesdales.

    And let's be clear: Only American traditionalism can cancel traditional Americana.

    "Cancel culture". Sigh: Aren't you people embarrassed yet?
    ____________________

    Notes:

    KCAL News Staff. "Bomb threat made to Budweiser's Van Nuys factory". CBS News. 14 April 2023. CBCNews.com. 14 April 20223. https://bit.ly/43tzpQZ
     
  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Nonsense. They will be outraged that Budweiser canelled the Clydesdales and blame liberals for putting trannies on cans.
     
  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Hamilton Nolan↱ in re "the cancel culture panic":

    The only reasonable way to discuss cancel culture is not "Why are kids these days canceling people?"— it is "Why is this objectively unimportant niche phenomenon suddenly such a large part of mainstream discourse?" The most basic answer is "Because so much of mainstream discourse is produced by a narrow demographic of upper middle class middle aged uncool people who have never worked outside of media or politics or academia or nonprofits and whose nightmare is getting made fun of by college kids." But on a more fundamental level, it's that deep yearning for the things that cannot be purchased. Why do Ken Griffin and David Geffen and David Koch spend "charity" money not on feeding the poor, but to plaster their names on public buildings? Because they are thirsty for—above all—that public love. It is a sort of prestige, but not, ironically, the cheap sort of prestige that can be bought; what they desire deep down is the genuine love and respect of humanity. Their performative efforts to earn it are pitiful. But their desire never ebbs. That respect would amount to immortality for them.

    You ain't gonna get it, fuckers. Though it would seem, rationally, that a bunch of not-rich college kids heckling a guy who makes $100 mil a year would mean nothing to him, that is not the case. The idea of being mocked and shouted down by the unwashed masses strikes fear in the heart of the powerful because it is emblematic of their inability to buy that respect that cannot be bought. This goes not just for moguls and billionaires, but for those who have achieved cultural success—the prestigious newspaper columnists who cannot stop writing dumbass columns about this spectacularly asinine topic because it represents their worst fears. Namely, that a lifetime spent worshiping at the altar of careerism and credentialism was all for nothing. When you have long cultivated a resume that demands respect only to be disrespected by a bunch of nobodies, it can shake you to your core. What was the point of it all, if the cool kids think you suck?

    It's an interesting take, and not without its value, but is also part of a larger justification reminding that mockery is a weapon that "regular people" have, "in a world riven by inequality", to fight against "powerful people" and "cut through the advantages of wealth".

    If we lived in a more equal society in which everyone had a fair and democratic chance to exercise their own power and influence, we could have a reasonable discussion about toning down “incivility.” Until then, fuck it. You gotta use what you got.

    There is a strange middle ground, here, one that acknowledges, to the one, that the "cancel culture panic" really is classist cynicism in a populist framework, and ultimately a reinforcement of societal inequality; to the other, though, we cannot pass over the perpetual downward spiral, or race to the bottom.¹ Consider Americans and guns, for example: Would the solution to our problem really be for everyone to strap on? How about fraud: Does the fact that someone got away with lying mean the rest of us should start lying to each other in the same way? At Sciforums: Is the solution really for everyone to join the cranks and crackpots? If we organize our socialization around lower, more vicious instincts, those are the characteristics our community will show most clearly.

    The thing is, sometimes the appropriate answer, generally speaking, really is to tell someone to fuck off all the way to Hell. While we might consider that outcome inappropriate, very often we accept and even encourage the behavior it responds to. It's kind of like the idea that it is impolite and inappropriate to call someone a dick, but it would be wrong to discourage people from dicking around in order to provoke.

    There are, of course, only certain ways that works, but the framework is generally distinct: The "cancel culture" complaint is a counterrevolutionary retort. Nolan isn't wrong to describe a "common thread" being "desire by the already powerful to sew up the last few places in the world that they are forced to deal with regular people on an equal playing field" but it is a pointed and narrow expression.

    What, after all, does it mean to be powerful? Nolan refers to WB/Discovery CEO David Zaslav, who "made $500 million in the past five years", and the controversy of being heckled by the Boston University graduates he was addressing at commencement. And this is a different sort of powerful than the working stiff who blames cancel culture, and political correctness before it, for wrecking his job with rules against sexual harassment. And in between, sure, we can probably recall the story of a public relations executive who apparently could not foresee that tweeting a racist joke about Africa while traveling to Africa on business might not go over well.

    What is powerful? The author of the infamous Harper's letter was a minority author roughed up in some critical circles for lying about his experiences in a way that panders to tradtitional racist expectation. The Black comedian who punches down with bigoted jokes against transgender turns out to be no victim of cancel culture, but proclaims how good it has been to him. The British female billionaire continues to find market success despite financing supremacist, antifeminist politics and propaganda including known neo-Nazi associations.

    When it was traditional societal empowerment suppressing dissent, or simply what it found unsatisfactory, we didn't call their efforts "cancel culture". Artists and scholars called it "censorship", and traditionalists called it "voting with your wallet". Comparatively, "cancel culture" is a complaint about the people they disdained being strong enough to effectively fight back, strong enough to vote with ballot, wallet, and voice—strong enough to measurably influence both the discourse and underlying circumstance.

    Power is relative to circumstance. The "cancel culture panic" is just that, selfish emotionalism and frenetic irrationalism that only makes things worse.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    ¹ see, #3693834/24 ("Is the US headed for another civil war?")↗:

    There is an argument that one is foolish in a marketplace setting to not utilize all available tools; the flip-side, of course, is any number of complaints reminding the obligations of being the proverbial good guys. Inasmuch as there is an actual goodness in play, the side of the dualism that tends to pursue it most directly seems to answer an implicit higher standard approaching perfection. And while expectations of integrity are, for the proverbial good guys, kind of an obvious duh, there is some mystery about whether the other side consider themselves proverbial good guys, because they so consistently behave as villains and there comes a point when nobody is surprised, but we are somehow obliged to let it go on, anyway.

    At the point where one might consider whether or not to play fast with rhetoric in order to meet the other on ethically loose ground, sure, the moral question seems pretty duh, but there will always be the counterpoint asking whether one could have fought harder, utilized other tools: By some tellings, if you don't lie and grift you did not use every market tool available to you.

    Nolan, Hamilton. "These Vampires Can Have Everything Except Our Love". How Things Work. 2 June 2023. HamiltonNolan.com. 4 June 2023. https://bit.ly/3MNbkwL
     
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Pillow Bites

    This is the thing about "cancel culture":

    MyPillow is auctioning off hundreds of pieces of equipment and subleasing manufacturing space after several shopping networks and major retailers took the company's products off shelves.

    The Chaska-based manufacturer recently listed more than 850 "surplus equipment" items on the online auction site K-Bid. Sewing machines, industrial fabric spreaders, forklifts and even desks and chairs are up for auction.

    Founder and CEO Mike Lindell said MyPillow has experienced a loss in revenue and the items are no longer needed as the company consolidates its operations.

    Major retailers such as Walmart, Bed Bath & Beyond and Slumberland Furniture all said they will no longer sell MyPillow products as Lindell continues to falsely claim that the 2020 election was stolen from former President Donald Trump.

    "It was a massive, massive cancellation," Lindell said in a phone interview Monday. "We lost $100 million from attacks by the box stores, the shopping networks, the shopping channels, all of them did cancel culture on us."


    (Bierschbach and Johnson↱)

    The idea of a "massive, massive canncellation" seems pretty straightforward. It's wonderful phrasing, though, they "did cancel culture on" him.

    First, not only did we not call it "cancel culture" when books and music were suppressed by boycott threats, what conservatives also referred to as voting with the wallet is even more straightforward. Losing a hundred million "from attacks" by retailers is how Lindell describes a loss of sales revenue. And, quite frankly, it's not "cancel culture" if people do not wish to be associated with unreliable infamy.

    While the apparent consolidation is not necessarily related to an ongoing billion-dollar defamation lawsuit against Lindell and his company, the more apparent repellant would probably be the seditionist conspiracy theory at the heart of the litigation. In addition to the lawsuit, Lindell has also lost arbitration in re a foolhardy $5 million bounty to prove his conspiracy theory wrong.

    Lindell, who says he has not yet laid off any employees, remains steadfast. Of his troubles, he says, "I will be vindicated in every single one."

    But, yeah: No, when you go out of your way to be unreliable and notorious, it's not "cancel culture" when people back away.

    A whole lot of the complaint about "cancel culture" overlooks that basic point.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Biersbach, Briana and Brooks Johnson. "MyPillow is auctioning off equipment after retailers pull its products". Star Tribune. 10 July 2023. StarTribune.com. 10 July 2023. https://bit.ly/3NFXDjC
     
  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    #NotAGift | #KeepsOnGiving

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    "Despite Dawkins' healthy head start, Peterson is closing the gap in the race to be the first of the two to hit the 'screaming, topless and drunk, at geese in the park' phase of public life."


    Every once in a while, the old Dawkins-Peterson tweet comes to mind; it's almost impossible to avoid. University of Toronto emeritus Jordan Peterson is a wellspring of notorious misfortune, a sad story that just keeps on giving.

    An Ontario court ruled against psychologist and media personality Jordan Peterson Wednesday, and upheld a regulatory body's order that he take social media training in the wake of complaints about his controversial online posts and statements.

    Last November, Peterson, a professor emeritus with the University of Toronto psychology department who is also an author and media commentator, was ordered by the College of Psychologists of Ontario to undergo a coaching program on professionalism in public statements.

    That followed numerous complaints to the governing body of Ontario psychologists, of which Peterson is a member, regarding his online commentary directed at politicians, a plus-sized model, and transgender actor Elliot Page, among other issues. You can read more about those social media posts here.

    The college's complaints committee concluded his controversial public statements could amount to professional misconduct and ordered Peterson to pay for a media coaching program — noting failure to comply could mean the loss of his licence to practice psychology in the province.

    Peterson filed for a judicial review, arguing his political commentary is not under the college's purview.

    Three Ontario Divisional Court judges unanimously dismissed Peterson's application, ruling that the college's decision falls within its mandate to regulate the profession in the public interest and does not affect his freedom of expression.


    (CBC↱)

    Seriously, though, Jordan Peterson adventures are a pathetic mix of tales somewhere in the range of Jacob Wohl or mgtow cooking threads, i.e., if you're hearing about it, it's probably not good news.

    But that's also the thing about "cancel culture": You kind of have to go out of your way to make things go so badly. The court suggests the order "does not prevent Dr. Peterson from expressing himself on controversial topics":

    Peterson had said his statements were not made in his capacity as a clinical psychologist, but instead were "off-duty opinions" — an argument the court rejected.

    "Dr. Peterson sees himself functioning as a clinical psychologist 'in the broad public space' where he claims to be helping 'millions of people,'" Schabas wrote.

    "Peterson cannot have it both ways: he cannot speak as a member of a regulated profession without taking responsibility for the risk of harm that flows from him speaking in that trusted capacity."

    It stands out to me because this sort of thing comes up, from time to time, and I've always thought the difference was fairly apparent. There was some murmur and buzz over a decade ago about a journalist's NPR credential, and in more recent years, I alluded↗ to an obscure dispute among linguists—as it turns out, the potential for cancellation someone faced was a professional question easily avoided by not behaving in certain ways that discredit one's credential. And it the question struck near the heart of a blog collapse; the problem turned out to be that some of a blogger's clients might become aware of his publicly-known nom de plume, and that could complicate and even ruin their professional relationship.

    And these aren't fools; they are professionals with particular responsibilities, and it's always hard to understand how it is they fail to distinguish between conditions. Speech is speech, but speech under purview of credential comes with responsibilities.

    Still, though, Jordan Peterson stories often turn out to be one of those stranger-than-fiction things; they ought not be so laughable.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    CBC News. "Ontario court rules against Jordan Peterson, upholds social media training order". 23 August 2023. CBC.ca. 25 August 2023. https://bit.ly/47I0Etb


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  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    The Thing About Jordan ....

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    It's not really a gift that keeps on giving. That is, it's not a gift; Jordan Peterson is the sort of infamy we would all be better off ignorning, and the once-lauded University of Toronto motivational speaker most assuredly does not help himself or anyone else with his behavior.

    In the wake of a Nazi murdering three Black people in Jacksonville, MSNBC host Medhi Hasan↱, as a "brown Muslim" asked "white conservatives" to "crack down on the hate preachers" and "condemn the rise of white-supremacist ideology".

    Jordan Peterson challenged Hasan↱, saying, "You're not really brown", and describing Muslims of Indian heritage as "Caucasian by definition".

    Or as Hasan↱ observed, a "white man, telling me I’m not brown, I’m actually white."

    While the contingent whiteness of Jews↱ is a real question in history, American literature includes the jest of south Asians as honorary whites, and white supremacism is long accustomed to deciding who gets to be white, I must confess, telling someone like Hasan what color he is, and declaring him "Caucasian by definition", is new. I have a hard time recalling ever witnessing this particular strain of stupidity, before.

    Nonetheless, Peterson has doubled down↱, in poetic form:

    You're not black
    And you're not Asian
    What's left?
    Caucasian
    It's not that difficult

    And I didn't call you white
    Not that I care
    I pointed out that your true color
    Is tan
    Which it is

    More or less like mine

    And your idiot "a white man" comment
    Implying that I have no right to notice whatever the hell your color is

    Is not the least bit intimidating or damning
    As far as I'm concerned

    Do we really need to list the fallacies? For instance, if we start with reminding there is more than Black, Asian, and Caucasian to consider, that should make some sort of point. The second stanza presents a distinction without a difference and then plays games with Peterson's own words, nonetheless affirming Hasan with the short third stanza. The fourth is a fallacy affirming Peterson's presupposed authority to decide what color other people are. The fifth is self-gratifying, typal fluff rebuking a sosobra of Peterson's own stuffing.

    Anyway, Hasan↱ reminds, "You know India is literally *in* Asia, right?"

    Short anecdote: Once upon a time, maybe five years ago, I happened to have a conversation in which this guy I know actually did the whole, never heard of him until now but by coincidence I happened to hear him making some interesting points about free speech, bit, and, y'know, whatever, but it's also true that timing is everything, and as it happened, Peterson had peaked, already, and the five or so years in between involve him falling off a proverbial cliff, and while it's easy enough to appreciate that he survived, the professor emeritus has never really recovered.

    And if he was dubious before the induced coma, Peterson has managed to be something of a celebrity catastrophe, since. Trying to figure how important any given celebrity tantrum actually is can be tricky when calculating what verges toward noncompetency; flipside says that while it looks spectacular, this kind of sickly sparkle is almost on-brand. Five years ago, as Peterson thundered and threatened legal action, the target of his fury explained how his behavior was actually "a classic attempt to chill free speech". "Like many of his ilk," Kate Manne explained, "what he really seems to be demanding — when one examines his actions rather than words — is to be able to speak free from legitimate social consequences, such as other people talking back" (qtd. in Carmon↱).

    And this is at the heart of the complaint against cancel culture: It isn't enough for some to simply say something; they need their words legitimized and even enforced. Look at Peterson's implicit presupposition that he can decide who is or isn't what color. The rhetoric is not considered illegitimate simply because of politics, or political labels and ranges; the problem is that it is insupportable and unsustainable discourse.

    This is also a fundamental historical connection between the lament against cancel culture and complaints that have been around since the 1980s; see #111↑ above¹. As Jacob Hamburger↱ explained several years ago, such "iconoclastic" ideas and figures "are actually a well-established institution in American discourse". And if that institution finds greater sympathy in particular political sectors, there might actually be a reason why.

    And in his way, Jordan Peterson is almost exemplary of what that pretense of grievance is for.

    Meanwhile, in the time it takes to write this post, things just keep getting more ridiculous; Jordan the poet goes off↱:

    Have it your way
    You boring bloviator
    I really don't care if you think you're green

    Fine
    You're not Caucasian
    You're Black

    Or Asian
    Or whatever you want to be
    Just like all you bloody progressives

    For anyone who cares
    Here's what Wikipedia has to say

    Hasan↱ inquires, "did you look at the opening paragraph of the Wikipedia (!) article you’re citing below (to try and justify saying I’m not Asian)?" And, that's the thing, Peterson was citing an obsolete classification from a disproven theory of biological race.

    It doesn't stop. He just keeps on giving. But, yeah, also, it just doesn't get much more clear than that.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    ¹ cf., Hamburger, 2018:

    "It would take a short memory, however, not to notice that these sorts of polemics over political correctness are anything but novel: they have been around for at least 30 years, ever since a strikingly similar set of media debates centered around college campuses took off in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Toward the end of the Reagan years, political correctness became a favorite bugbear of conservative intellectuals, who believed that college professors had latched onto illiberal or totalitarian notions of equality, and were indoctrinating their students with a subversive view of American society. Today's 'dark web' provocateurs rarely mention these predecessors, who not too long ago occupied a similar place in national media debates. But the comparison suggests that the 'iconoclastic' ideas of these figures are actually a well-established institution in American discourse: an institution whose home is on the political right."

    It's a point that keeps coming up; see #3577714 (2019)↗, #3653319 (2020)↗, and several more occasions in this thread, over time: #3664387↑, 3669466↑, 3670064↑ (2021), #3695942↑ (2022).​

    @jordanbpeterson. "Have it your way …". Twitter. 28 August 2023. Twitter.com. 28 August 2023. "https://bit.ly/3qHtOYR

    —————. "You're not black …". Twitter. 27 August 2023. Twitter.com. 28 August 2023. https://bit.ly/47OfLkL

    —————. "You're not really brown …". Twitter. 27 August 2023. Twitter.com. 28 August 2023. https://bit.ly/3Eho23i

    @medirhasan. "Dear Dr. Peterson, did you look at the opening paragraph of the Wikipedia (!) article you’re citing below (to try and justify saying I’m not Asian)?" Twitter. 28 August 2023. Twitter.com. 28 August 2023. https://bit.ly/45Leppc

    —————. "Nothing to see here, just Jordan Peterson, a white man, telling me I’m not brown, I’m actually white. Also, how am I a Caucasian, 'by definition'?" Twitter. 27 August 2023. Twitter.com. 28 August 2023. https://bit.ly/3qN0HmR

    —————. "'Tonight, this brown Muslim is asking the white conservative community to do the same: get your house in order, crack down on the hate preachers... condemn the right of white supremacist ideology.' From my @MSNBC monologue, on the terror in Jacksonville:". Twitter. 27 August 2023. Twitter.com. 28 August 2023. https://bit.ly/3R1Ba3V

    —————. "You know India is literally *in* Asia, right? Where did you get your doctorate from again, @jordanbpeterson?" Twitter. 28 August 2023. Twitter.com. 28 August 2023. https://bit.ly/45sKP7U

    Beauchamp, Beauchamp, Zack. "Trump and the fragile belonging of American Jews". Vox. 21 August 2019. Vox.com. 28 August 2023. http://bit.ly/2Zkm5Re

    Carmon, Irin. "Exclusive: Jordan Peterson Threatened to Sue a Critic for Calling Him a Misogynist". The Cut. 20 September 2018. TheCut.com. 28 August 2023. https://bit.ly/2ONaEbO

    Hamburger, Jacob. "The 'Intellectual Dark Web' Is Nothing New". Los Angeles Review of Books. 18 July 2018. LAReviewOfBooks.org. 28 August 2023. http://bit.ly/2zP6VXX
     
  20. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    39,286
    It might be mentioned that it is possible for guys you know to change their minds about people over a five year period - or less! That's perhaps even more likely if the first guy's initial opinion about a person was provisional and based on scant information, due to the fact that the first guy just happened to hear the second guy saying something or other and didn't know a lot about him at that time five years ago etc. etc.

    To take another example, a guy you know might have once thought you were a decent human being, and then, at some point in the past five years may have changed his mind about you, based on observed behaviours of yours during the intervening time period.

    I mean, when a guy like you makes accusations he knows are lies, then keeps on telling the same lies and trying to make little diggy childish attacks on some other guy in just about every post he makes, despite the other guy wanting nothing to do with the lying hate-filled little man that the first guy has turned out to be, that ought to suggest something to you. But then again, if you're a liar and a hate-filled little man for whom hating other people seems to be a prime focus of your activities, you're probably not doing a lot of clear thinking.
     
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,860
    Actually, what stands out about the story is the unbelievable artifice of its moment. It's kind of like comedy inasmuch as timing is everything. Explaining the other's pretense of cluelessness is complicated in part because it was so ridiculous in its moment, and like I said, as it happened, Peterson fell off a cliff.

    I mean, just think about it: Someone makes a random stand about something he apparently doesn't know anything about, except then he turns to the pitch in almost typal form, and, y'know, whatever, except, as the timing goes, Peterson left him looking kind of silly and naïve. Like I said, Jordan Peterson stories often turn out to be stranger than fiction.

    And inasmuch as "it might be mentioned that it is possible for guys you know to change their minds about people over a five year period", well, sure. Whether it's a matter of learning, or simply a turn of passions, it is to be expected that people's opinions might change over time, especially when time makes a particular opinion look foolish.

    It's kind of like when people made weird excuses for what time would show to be exactly what it looked like. Sometime later, when passing history makes clear that they were wrong, sure, maybe they changed their minds, and it would be very helpful if they could tell us what they were thinking.

    As you watch the forward march of American fascism, does it never occur to you to wonder what people were thinking when pitching cheap antiliberal fare about paternalism and condescension, when it turned out the supremacism, violence, and authoritarianism were precisely where conservatives were going the whole time? I mean, if we presume those peole were being honest when fretting about feminism causing misogyny, or Black people causing racism, or why it's other people's fault that Trump was elected, then one of the most helpful things they can do is explain how they got it wrong. Of course, if they really believed that stuff, or were just saying it for having nothing better to say, then of course they can't tell us what they got wrong. But, seriously, though, do you not at least wonder?

    Think of Godwin's Law, James. And then think of rhetoric describing Republicans as Nazis, sympathizers, or collaborators. Now consider the fact that it turns out that kind of talk was fair game the whole time. A marker recently emerged from thirty years ago; a disgraced racist sheriff and current Republican congressman who publicly suggested insurrectionist violence in response to Donald Trump's indictment turns out to have left a record as a Nazi sympathizer in the Nineties. That is to say, they've been this way the whole time.

    For as long as we ought not call it racism, misogyny, supremacism, it turns out that's just what it was. Or, as such, in his way, Jordan Peterson is almost exemplary of what that pretense of grievance is for.

    The tale of Jordan Peterson is a sad story that just keeps on giving.
     
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,860
    Doc Petulance, or, Yeah, We Kind of Knew Already

    With all this whine, you might expect to find a vintner, but, no, it's just Jordan Peterson↱:

    Cancel culture: The widespread utilization, primarily on the left, of female-typical patterns of antisocial behaviour such as reputation savaging, gossip, innuendo, mobbing and exclusion to isolate, demoralize and destroy political or personal enemies

    Actually, we kind of always knew the actual definition was that sort of bigoted trash, but this sort of tantrum cuts right to the heart of it all. Someone suggested conservatives won't have definitions for certain words they use, so Jordan Peterson responded with bitter irrationality that also happens to aptly describe conservative thought.

    If you let them talk, they will eventually tell you the truth, and JoPe just couldn't help himself.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    @jordanbpeterson. "Woke: A pseudo-intellectual pastiche of postmodern and neo-Marxist tropes, dedicated to the idea that categories themselves do nothing but privilege and oppress". Twitter. 10 September 2023. Twitter.com. 11 September 2023. https://bit.ly/488UqTf
     
  23. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Comedian Sarah Silverman↱ observes:

    The people that think misinformation and spreading lies is "free speech" have banned hundreds of books. More books than any of these grifters will ever read in their shitty cunty homophobic hate-fueled lifetimes.

    And those people could not achieve what they have without a lot of support. Recall, as such, people who downplayed rightist authoritarian rhetoric while complaining about the condescenscion, paternalism, and elitism of liberalism, who equivocated and promoted falsehood, defending fraud and defamation as free speech, and arguing to dilute and mitigate in order to legitimize what they knew wasn't true.

    Think of it this way: Eleven individuals account for nearly sixty percent of book banning in school libraries across the nation. And where they are most active, that is how the system was set up, so that individuals could disrupt schools throughout an entire state. Beyond them, we might consider the prospect that some politicians would prefer to protect free speech by closing libraries if they are not allowed to censor them according to religious and political priority.

    And the overlap with the traditionalist free-speech complaints, as we have discussed before¹, reflects the heart of the lamentation against so-called "cancel culture".
    ____________________

    Notes:

    ¹ In this thread, see #111↑, as well as #178↑, 203↑, 206↑, 223↑, 276↑. For other applications of the same underlying point, see also, #3577714↗ in re New Atheism; #3653319↗ on rightist cruelty; #3655465↗ considers supremacism and what appeasement brings.​

    @SarahKSilverman. "The people that think misinformation and spreading lies is 'free speech' have banned hundreds of books. More books than any of these grifters will ever read in their shitty cunty homophobic hate-fueled lifetimes." Twitter. 28 September 2023. Twitter.com. 29 September 2023.https://bit.ly/3thXeh6
     

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