On Chivalry and Sexual Violence

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Jan 9, 2020.

  1. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    It’s been rumored in the news, that he’ll probably get ten years - since the sentence runs from 5 to 25 years.
     
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  3. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Men and/or Women don't rape people, and men and/or women don't otherwise sexually assault people: Rapists and chauvinists pigs rape and assault people. Be that man or woman.

    Havn't really been following this thread that much, [just an odd glance or two] but speaking on chivalry and the like, I had cause a couple of years ago, [going into the city to attend a old boys reunion] on a bus. Things got pretty crowded and people were standing while I was lucky enough to have a seat. A 40ish something woman got onto the bus, and I immediatley stood up for her and offered here my seat. [some old fashioned values I learnt as a kid] She was absolutely flabbergasted, and remarked fairly loudly so other people could here, words to the effect, that she could not remember having seen such politeness and respect and refused to take the seat, until I insisted and remarked that while I may be an old fart, I was still able to stand for the rest of my 8 km or so journey. She then gratefully thanked me and took the seat. In many ways I can be seen as "old fashioned" [this may have been one of them] but as a great man once said? "that which is old is not necessarily bad, and that which is new, is not necessarily good" That great man was me!!!

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    Just joking to my old friends out there, just joking re the great remark!!

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  5. Bells Staff Member

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    Thank you so much for saying this!!!

    Because I really and truly was never able to make that distinction. At least now we know and will be able to easily identify these rapists and chauvinist pigs from men and women and never have to worry about being raped again!!!

    Thank you for your service..
     
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  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Very poor approach.

    For too long, rapists have been depicted as unkempt, nearly inhuman thugs who hide in the bushes with a knife waiting to jump out and rape unsuspecting women passing by. In this scenario, ordinary men (and women) don't have to worry about raping someone. They, after all, are not unkempt, nearly inhuman thugs, so they don't have to worry about it. They are men, and (by your definition) they do not rape people. End of story.

    But reality is quite different. In reality, only 20% of the rapes out there are committed by strangers, people unknown to the victim. Only 11% use a weapon. And a large number of them afterwards do not feel like they have done anything wrong. Sure, she might have said "no" at some point, but he convinced her otherwise! It was mutual attraction. She was into him. She couldn't resist his charms. She didn't even say anything about it for months afterwards; that's not something that someone who has been raped does! And if she does, well, sour grapes. He said - she said. A misunderstanding. Certainly not rape, because he is CERTAINLY not a rapist!

    We have seen how well that works.

    So we have to change the approach. We have to talk about how the majority of rapists do not consider themselves "rapists" and generally would not even be identified by others as such. And we have to talk about consent - what it is and more importantly what it isn't. And the idea that rapists are nearly-inhuman criminals different than everyone else cripples that approach. Everyone has to think about consent - because when you don't, when you make too many assumptions, even that upstanding Man or Woman can very easily turn into a rapist. Even when they, or the people close to them, don't notice the transition themselves.

    So cut it out.
     
  8. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    23,754
    I never said anything about any ease of identifying them. That is a problem, though obviously Weinstein was both....
    No thanks needed...as I said... [some old fashioned values I learnt as a kid]In many ways I can be seen as "old fashioned" [this may have been one of them]
    Not sure what you are alluding to but perhaps your reading comprehension is poor. I said "Men and/or Women don't rape people, and men and/or women don't otherwise sexually assault people: Rapists and chauvinists pigs rape and assault people. Be that man or woman."
    Let me add also that Weinstein has seen justice served, and I don't believe there is too much doubt about that...just as in our country we had the head of the Catholic church jailed for child offences. Again justice done. Other cases also abound where false allegations have been made against people. Thank Christ justice has also been served in that regard.
     
  9. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    You are wrong. People who see themselves as upstanding members of society sexually assault people. People who are seen by others as upstanding members of society sexually assault people. So if you stick to your definition, you will not see any improvement. Indeed, we will regress.

    I am sure you will agree that understanding consent is important to reducing the incidence of sexual assault and rape. Which seminar announcement do you think would be more effective in getting this message out at a local college?

    "Consent and communication - a seminar on important issues in sexual relationships."
    "Consent and communication - a seminar for rapists and aspiring rapists."

    Because, after all, Men and Women don't need the class. They don't rape. Right?
     
  10. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    I’m confused by your point, paddoboy?
     
  11. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    On your first sentence, no I am not wrong, in fact what I said is actually nearly what you are saying in the rest of the paragraph, other then the last sentence. In fact I gave an example with the Australian Cardinal.
    Sure I agree. And understanding consent properly is the crux of the matter in many circumstances. I had a blonde slap me on the arse once. I was rather pleased. By the same token, if I was to wink at some sexy looking sheila, and she gave me a disaproving look, I would be making a quick exist and avoiding her.


    Correct, generally speaking, the vast majority of men and women don't rape or sexually assault, but some evil bastards among them do...Some even go further, like the recent unspeakable crime of a crazed man burning his wife and three children. Or the Mother who drove her three children into a dam/river and drowned them...They said she had post natal problems or such. But many women do and they don't go to that extreme do they?. Just as most men don't go to the extreme of the arsehole that burnt his wife and kids.
     
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    That's where your approach will fail. If you target "evil bastards" you reach no one, and the attempt fails; sexual assaults and rape go up. Not a good outcome, as I am sure you will agree. You have to reach men and women. People just like me, and you -and that woman who slapped you.

    "But she was just . . . ." Yes, she was just. Just like every other person out there who assaults someone. They were just.
     
  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    23,754
    Sorry about that.
    Let me try and sum it up...Weinstein deserved all he will get. He is/was a rapist and sexual assaulter. Most men and women are not rapists or sexual assaulters...Most are decent folk who go about every day life But some can and do go astray. If I have ever made advances on the opposite sex [and I have, plenty of times] and I get rejected [also happened plenty of times] I quickly exit the scene and generally avoid that person.
    Anything else you want cleared up?
     
  14. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    23,754
    I read that as saying everyone is guilty until proven innocent.

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    Who the bloody hell should you target if not the evil bastards. We all, well most of us have common sense. I maybe old fashion in some of my ways, but I also observe on all occasions respect for all people of both sexes, until otherwise given some indication of otherwise.
     
  15. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    23,754
    I also believe most decent men and women have been reached at least in this country with the unspeakable crime of the burning to death of the Mother and three children. When that was highlighted on our news services, both me and the Mrs were in tears. There is no excuse for the arsehole who did this, irrespective of any supposed state of mind. It was wrong, evil and bad.
    Other crimes are also comparable, and I have raised one with the Mother driving into a dam/river a while back...no excuses in my opinion.
     
  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Not at all. But everyone is a potential rapist; pretty much everyone out there has a desire to have sex. Without the knowledge and understanding of consent and knowing the importance of communication, people could make mistakes that would turn a well-meaning man (or woman) into a sexual assaulter. Good intentions are not enough.
    Yes. And even today in some countries, "common sense" means that you push a woman as hard as you can to have sex, and if she fights a little bit - well, that's expected. Of course she's not going to just give in because she's not that kind of woman. It might get a little rough but it's certainly not RAPE! You care about her; how could it be rape? Rapists are evil bastards who hide in the shadows, not a common-sense Man who really cares about her and will do right by her.

    Changing attitudes like that - even in common sense, upstanding people - is critical if we want to make progress. As is changing the attitude that rapists are somehow fundamentally different than everyone else. They are actually just like you at a fundamental level. They just learned different things and came to different conclusions. Education can help fix that.

    "Old fashioned" was men pushing women who said "no" until they gave in. Let's try to change that.
     
  17. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    ok, I'll concur with that.
    Like I already said, if there is an obvious unmistakable disapproval or no, most people are smart enough to realise it. Of course I'm sure you'll agree that a woman does also have some responsibility.
    I'm all for education of both sexes.
    No, not at all. Old fashion was what I said with regards to standing up to give a lady a seat on a bus. I have though also been in situations as a younger man when I thought I was "in" and there was a last minute, unmistakable NO! I stopped, and avoided ever being involved with such ever again, despite on one occasion, getting an unmistakable c'mon a few months later.

    And as I mentioned in another thread, the other side of this coin is the possibility of false charges being brought against an individual.
    https://www.nrl.com/news/2020/02/26/josh-reynolds-cleared-after-police-drop-charges/


    All I'm asking for and considering is a sense of fair play. Men can be evil and also vindictive....women can be evil and vindictive. No one is dismissing or belittling any evil that may occur in any situation. The vast majority of course are probably initiated by men....never denied that. But recognition that evil is a non gender specific thing, is not detracting from any specific case.
    And funnily enough I believe now many women are now accepting that fact.
     
  18. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    Kudos to you.!!!
    If i offered my seat to someone an they refused... i woud nod an set my Azz back down... lol.!!!

    Lucky for her that you didnt take no for an answr an she was finaly persuaded to accept you'r offer which was to her benifit.!!!
    A lot of people coud learn a lesson from you'r example.!!!
     
  19. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Very very important

    I have heard talk about allowing consent to be withdrawn POST act

    How would that work? He tricked me? threatened me?

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  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    And "old fashioned" with regards to how you "landed" a woman. Witness the movies of the 1950's and 1960's. I recall one James Bond movie where he threw the love interest on the ground, wrestled with her for a few minutes until she was overcome with desire and they had sex. That was fairly common back then, so "old fashioned" has good and bad aspects.
    And recognizing that many people don't even see it as evil.
     
  21. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    No argument from me, but that still does not invalidate the validity of my original comment.
    I see any forced rape or any assault by any person as evil. That's been my outlook forever.
    I know where you are coming from Billvon, and I'm mostly there anyway and I believe my posts in this and other threads always abide by that stance.
    My opinion and that of many other man and woman also, is that taking the real hardline sometimes over the top stance that some seem to have, is not doing any good and simply setting one sex against the other. Rape, attempted rape, sexual assault, verbal assault, physical assault by any person is wrong and we need to find a way to stamp it out, and that is not going to be easy, if possible at all.
    Just heard two cases/incidents of domestic violence and accusations just now on the arvo news. Both in my opinion highlight the fact that it is non gender specific.
     
  22. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Like I said, just part of what I was taught as a young bloke.
     
  23. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    Well speakin of young blokes wit manners... i know this 28 year old guy... an the first thang he does when he walks into a home whare thar ant no men livin thar is to gather up all the trash an take it to the outside trash bin.!!!
    An then he explains that his mom taut him that no woman shoud ever have to take the trash out as long as thers a man in the house.!!!
    Thats the kind of thang that shoud catch a womans eye as far as him bein good husband material or not.!!!
     

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