On Chivalry and Sexual Violence

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Jan 9, 2020.

  1. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, but I figure that posting a comment on a public discussion board invites public discussion of posts.
    They can be, yes.
    Also agreed. And all those things can be part of the problem as well.
    Well, it's a solution in terms of keeping his target alive. Had Rowan Baxter been "tossed into a cage with a lot of other out-of-control men" before he got his hands on a can of gas there would be five more people alive today. Which may not have been the ideal solution, but miles better than what happened.
     
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  3. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    Well let me say this about that.!!!
    I was happy that my niece had a new boyfrind that she really liked... an i must say... when i herd about his takin-out-the-garbage routine red flags went up for me to.!!!
    But as the weeks went by it became clear that he intended to make her life much easier in that he woud be makin the decisions.!!!

    First... he wanted a big family -- at least 5 kids... an him an her woud need to start goin to church so they coud raise the children up right in-the-church.!!!
    Also... she woud need to wear very light makeup around his mom an make sure that her bra straps never showed.!!!
    He also wanted her to stop goin to a female gynecologist.!!!
     
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  5. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    What society are you talking about, on the verge of a nervous breakdown? There are plenty of men, who aren't abusing or murdering women. It's curious that you have posted this a second time now, suggesting that society is out of control and making everyone ''crazy,'' so this causes some men to feel ''insecure'' and therefore commit ''spontaneous'' acts of violence? I wouldn't have expected such side stepping to come from you, Jeeves.
     
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  7. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Just trying to put things in context.
    I happen to know a bit about abusive family dynamics. (Including the family an abusive cop.)
    Without some understanding of the bigger picture, you won't get very far in solving any of the component little pictures.
    But, if one component is all that interests you, keep trying and you may be be able to help a little. (I did - a very little.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  8. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Certain kind of woman? What do you mean wegs? She was a woman around mid 40ish...She expressed surprise that such "old fashion"respect still occurred....She loudly proclaimed that fact so as to shame other younger folk on the bus...then finally, gratefully, accepted the seat. While I maybe 75 wegs, I;m still reasonably fit and perhaps she also observed that...nothing more, nothing less and for no other reason did this incident occur then what I'm stating, despite the over the top emotional rants from other quarters.
    No not flirting at all with regard to the girl in the store...simply the everyday convention of addressing someone whose name you do not know. And yes when my Mrs is around also. I did also relate another incident when NSW and Sydney surrounds were being inundated with bushfires and Sydney was blanketed with smoky haze. My Mrs being Asthmatic had a breathing problem one evening, and got to the stage that I needed to call the ambos,
    They were addressing her as "love" and "sweety" in their efforts to comfort her and calm here. Simply wegs its casual, conventional talk and happens every day with your's truly, despite some that may like to interpret it as some sort of sexual perverted assault, simply to support an agenda. But let's not get into that again, its been done and dusted.
    I consider that others may see it as old fashion...I don't really, and again its not flirting and no other evil intent, although I can understand why you may have reservations about that with some of the emotional flack flying around since I started to partake in this thread.
    You appear fairly level headed wegs...stay that way, and I certainly hope none of my Aussie slang confuses you!

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  9. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Yep, agreed.
    Your desperation tactics are over the top as usual Bells.
    Like I said, I'm pretty fit for my age, fitter then many 10 years younger then me.
    Being driven to far because of a failing business venture? Or perhaps some other reason? I don't see "driven too far by her"
    Of course you know! I have given you the detailed incident.
    You flatter yourself Bells.

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    And also obviously on topic.
    Crap!! Or would you prefer a less then Aussie take on it?
    You never know really. Perhaps she [Bells] was sitting in that Bus.
    Thanks anyway for a honest appraisal.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  10. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Police are duty bound to look into each and every reason/action and details.
    And some fall short and rape, murder, pillage, and offend against society in general. Gee billvon, we appear to be going round in circles.

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  11. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Yes they are. Publicly stating that perhaps the wife drove him to do it is completely inappropriate.

    Fortunately, the police department apologized for his callous and inappropriate statements. Good for them.
    Then you are the only one.
     
  12. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Quite so, but it would be more meaningful to discuss the comment in its situational context, rather than as if it were a stand-alone pronouncement. The latter may sometimes lead to miscommunication, or even in rare instances, talking at cross-purposes.
    Maybe so. I'm not familiar with the case. And none of us know how long that "today" is.
    You can arrest people for assault, but you can't keep them locked up indefinitely. Rarely for more than a year, in fact. I can cite another case, some time ago - this problem has existed for a quite a long time - where the abusive husband was arrested and convicted for beating his wife. She went home to her folks in Chicago. He stewed in prison for seven months. The day after his release, he got in his truck and headed for the border. Once across, he stopped at a hardware store. Two nights later, he butchered the wife, their baby, her parents and sister with an axe.

    Intervention is a temporary stop-gap. The problem doesn't get solved.
    And especially doesn't get solved - is very often exacerbated - in the prison environment.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    To wegs...That's the gist of all this wegs...the overwhelmingly vast majority of men [and of course women] are law abiding and not abusing their partners...The odd tiff here and there perhaps, and then kissing and making up is still the norm [I hope!] .

    To jeeves: It certainly does seem at times that the world has gone mad, and perhaps there are progressivley more and more abusive partners. One point to consider of course is that with the WWW and global communications at the present time, where we can be getting news from the other side of the world while it is actually happening.
    Or are we approaching a "Nanny state" syndrome? where each and every action and reaction that we participate in is being watched and reported by Big Brother, and sometimes exaggerated or simply taken out of context.
    And of course the "shock horror"effects with highlighting many stories, at the expense of more reasonable, less newsy interactions that can make us all happy and contented.
    Of course with the indescribable case in question with the crazed ratbag incinerating his wife and kids, in hindsight obviously more should have been done.
    Rightly or wrongly, personally I often just block it all out, partake in what I like doing best [star gazing, reading, a Fosters or two, and sport] and letting it all hang out,[Aussie slang for relaxation

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    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  14. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    No, the world hasn't "gone" made. It hasn't been sane for at least 6000 years. (The record from before that is fragmentary)
    What I was trying to get across to Wegs, with those other examples, is that life-partners are not a special case of violence. Domestic arrangements are not isolated from the environment with which both partners have to cope, and from which they get their social cues, and which provides their [very uneven] support structure.
    Violence is everywhere. Violence - bullying of many kinds and degrees - is built into the system of law-enforcement and "corrections", international relations, national security, the economy, school, sport and entertainment - the culture itself.
    So are anxiety, suspicion, blame and resentment. It pervades families, work-places, neighbourhoods and federal elections.
    Humans tend to work off their own emotional turmoil on those who are below them on the pecking-order. The weakest always get the worst of whatever is troubling a society.
    I condemn the two guys who have figured largely in this thread.
    Today it's domestic violence, tomorrow another theater shooting or subway bombing or prison riot.
    Condemning them case by case is not enough to stop a culture of bullying.

    That just means we're gossiping about strangers, not just the people upstairs.
    I'm not sure what that means. It sounds like a pejorative view of caring about one another.
     
  15. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    So, your caveat is that you don't actually care.

    gyduijdghycuedsgbestw5s

    Think I quoted wrong person.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  16. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Eh? My caveat for what, exactly? I didn't realize it was my job to solve the problem of domestic violence.
    My caring has never saved a victim, but my advice has helped several.
    I've tried to bring an informed perspective on a long-standing social problem. If we all really cared, we could make a lot more progress toward repairing the structural flaws that cause this, as well as all the other kinds of violence within our purview.
    Nobody here is doing anything more effective than type.
     
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  17. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    It happens, eh?
    So, if we do all care, what next?
    Over the past century, we've made some progress in legislation, jurisprudence and social services, but we have still a very, very long way to go.
    Me, I'd recommend starting with Universal Basic Income. If women are not financially dependent, they have more choice, more autonomy and more confidence. The kids get better care, a better chance of escaping precarious family situations and violent neighbourhoods - before the family spirals into chronic abuse.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2020
  18. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    I'm pretty drunk and stoned that I can forgive myself for the now.

    Cool for me...
     
  19. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    I’ve been the victim in an abusive relationship Jeeves, and abusers have their reasons as to why they are violent but they are responsible for their actions. What I’ve learned is that there are red flags that occur in relationships before abuse begins, whether emotional, verbal or physical. But, many ignore the signs because “I’m so in love.”

    It takes a village, sure... but it also takes personal agency on the part of the abuser. It also takes educating people on what abuse looks like and how to trust those very first gut reactions when how someone is treating you, feels wrong. Breaking up with an abuser is very hard, because they don’t go quietly. Eventually, mine most likely found another victim and left me alone. Hannah Baxter wasn’t so lucky.

    Edit to add - many believe that abusive men are uneducated and poor. The guy whom I was in a relationship with was wealthy and highly educated. An intellect, but one who had a terrible anger problem. So, abusive men come from all walks of life, and fool those around them at first.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2020
  20. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Nobody has disputed this. At least, not in law-enforcement - even though a disproportionate number of policeman are themselves abusive to some degree.
    Yes. That you can see it in retrospect doesn't change the past.
    Discliamer: the following may or may not apply to your situation. It's an anonymous scenario, not a case study. It's not about what they should do, or how I feel about them; it's not about judgment. Just any old typical, common domestic battery, any era, any country.

    The people involved rarely see the warning signs at the time when abuse can be prevented.
    Usually, the abuser himself has no conscious awareness of his emerging problem - which is why I referred to a spontaneous act, which they regret ("I didn't mean it!!" is generally true that first time, maybe several times.) and which is usually forgiven by the victim. Typically, they develop a pattern: certain situations in which he loses his temper, lashes out, then repents, pleads, cries (very common), etc. and the victim laps up the guilty attention, enjoys being gracious. She sulks a little while - and forgives. But the episodes become more intense and the intervals grow shorter, and some other stuff is going on meanwhile - - like: she's gotten pregnant, given up/lost her job, is estranged from her parents who 'don't understand' that 'he's just under a lot of stress', is cut off from her friends who feel uncomfortable around the guy -- She's afraid and ashamed most of the time, but she also has moments of defiance, when she doesn't back down, maybe fights back, maybe even taunts him. By this time, his actions are deliberate, maybe premeditated, maybe anticipated. They both know what's going to happen, and what the triggers are - and that it can only keep getting worse.
    But they're in a cycle that's very, very hard to break.
    There is no way you, as an outsider, can affect his attitude. When he's beating on somebody (btw, the victim is sometimes an elder, very often children and even more often dogs), he's hating them, hating himself, hating the world: he's totally immersed in loathing and self-pity.
    It's an inimitable adrenalin-high, and when he finally crashes is probably the only sound sleep he ever gets. As I mentioned, this pattern of behaviour is very commonly associated with alcohol or drug dependency, but the abuse itself is addictive. As with substances, the addict builds up a tolerance; it takes bigger doses to achieve the desired effect. And, as with substances, the addict learns strategies of deception, deflection, self-justification and obfuscation.
    It takes a really powerful motive for him to change - to start fighting his demons instead of his dependents. Telling his what he should do is useless.
    Locking him up would be useful if the prison environment were equipped to provide the motivation to change, a better coping strategy, reachable goals and help in developing insight, self-control, self-esteem and alternative behaviour patterns.

    Be a good thing to include in high school curricula!

    Certainly. There's probably a dozen in the White House this minute. Two of them are secret service, one is a maintenance engineer, one is president.
     
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    And all too often, that intellect makes them better at hiding/disguising the abuse - and/or rationalizing it to themselves, turning the abuse into a noble cause.
     
  22. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Even worse, the victim is also in a social stratum where shame plays a decisive role; where privilege insures privacy; where money can buy covers, disguises and alibis; where acquaintances have a stake in not knowing.
    As to rationalization, intellect doesn't play much of a part: any idjit can parrot some version of "She drove me to it". As long as the culture is built on the patriarchal model, that excuse goes a long way in all classes, all forms.
     
  23. Bells Staff Member

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    23,278
    That's nice.

    Their gym closed because she left the abusive household.

    Certainly.

    But that was not what that police officer said. He inferred that the victim may have been to blame in her own murder, given all the circumstances surrounding an abusive and possessive man's intent and refusal to accept that his wife had left the abusive relationship..

    I have to say, this baffles me.

    Everyone knows that the majority are law abiding citizens who are not abusing their partners.

    So I have to ask, why do you become so defensive each time the subject of rape, sexual violence, domestic violence comes up and we are talking about female victims and you seem to believe that in discussing these issues or cases, that we somehow mean all men? Do you think we are talking about you? Is that why you then go on a bender and try to derail these discussions and become so defensive and go out of your way to distinguish yourself as being different?

    I simply do not understand why you are so intent on stating and demanding the obvious? And why does it only happen when the subject pertains to female victims instead of say, homosexual or lesbian victims of domestic and sexual violence (when the perpetrator is the same sex and gender)? Why do you keep doing it?

    So #NotAllMen doesn’t clarify anything. It doesn’t add to the discussion or develop it in any way. All it does is derail and dismiss the lived experiences of women and girls. And what the men who leap to remind us that ‘’not all men are like that’’, are actually saying is, ‘’I’m not like that.’’ Or to put it another way, they are letting women know that discussing misogyny makes them uncomfortable, and they’d like to be absolved of any blame before they will let women continue.

    Women undertook massive amounts of emotional labour and relived personal trauma in sharing their stories of sexual violence on #MeToo. To ask us to hand out cookies and ‘Well Done For Not Raping Anybody’ badges to men who rush to tell us #NotAllMen, is unreasonable at best, and insulting at worst.

    If you are a man and don’t recognise yourself in the behaviour described by women recently, then great. Our discussion of it shouldn’t offend you, or put you on edge. The men who are behaving like allies in this are the ones that are amplifying women’s voices, examining their own behaviour, and not drowning out our conversations in search of praise or validation.

    The author is describing you in that piece. Stop doing it.
     
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