On faith

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Magical Realist, Jun 22, 2016.

  1. Ivan Seeking Registered Senior Member

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    There is no proof so of course no proof is possible. No proof is possible for anyone. That's why it's called faith.
     
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  3. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    It is absurd and foolish. You have no reason for faith in god, so you argue that reason isn't reasonable.
     
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  5. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Yes. Atheists lack gullibility.
     
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  7. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    Then why are you here?
     
  8. Spellbound Banned Valued Senior Member

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    I could very well say that jan is living in delusion by being a theist and living a rich theistic life in her mind. But you sir are definitely living in delusion by being a firm atheist. 100%. You have no life experience nor spiritual understanding because that requires intelligence.
     
  9. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    It's an observation, not a judgement.
    What else could it be?

    Jan.
     
  10. Spellbound Banned Valued Senior Member

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    God is definitely real. I know this with 100% certainty. The only thing that stands in the way of me uniting with God is the lack of material evidence. I have seen self-aware sunlight. I have seen a transparent intelligent, morphing Being which then disappeared never to be seen in the same form again. I have been attacked by at least one demon. I have seen the hands of Christ. But as I continue to understand the proof of God with my mind and try to see Him with my mind's eye, I have no doubt that I will play a major role in bringing humankind not only towards intellectual understanding but physical evidence.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
  11. The God Valued Senior Member

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    I think a theist should never bring this kind of argument in when he is with atheists. This is an obvious pain area for atheists to accept, and none can blame them for at least this.
     
  12. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    The mind wanders down myriad philosophical paths converging and diverging in supportive and contradictory vague nuances within the dappled shade of a deep forest.

    Why indeed?
     
  13. Spellbound Banned Valued Senior Member

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    I just edited my response.

    YOU CAN ACTUALLY FEEL THE SPIRITUAL GREATNESS WITHIN YOU.
     
  14. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    In reading through some of the thread, it seems that there’s a common theme that if someone believes in God, then he/she can’t be taken seriously when it comes to science? Not sure if I understand the correlation. Science and faith can be compatible.
     
  15. Spellbound Banned Valued Senior Member

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    HAHAHAHA DON'T TALK LIKE THAT MAN! THAT'S SHIT!
     
  16. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    Precisely.
     
  17. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    excepting, of course, that I always feel at peace in a forest.
     
  18. The God Valued Senior Member

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    That is by those who neither understand science nor they have any clue about faith...
     
  19. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    'For those who believe, no proof is necessary' is self-evident on one level. If somebody already believes something, then he or she will need no additional convincing. That person already believes.

    The difficulty there is that the self-evident observation very easily turns into a circular argument: I believe and have faith that unicorns exist. So unicorns definitely exist. So the only justification I need for knowing that unicorns definitely exist is my faith in unicorns. Faith is just trust and confidence, it isn't a magical way of learning supernatural facts.

    Distinguishing truth from fantasy is a major difficulty in this kind of unevidenced belief. Just because somebody has unshakeable faith in the truth of some idea, doesn't make the idea true. Schizophrenics illustrate that every day with how strongly they believe in the truth of their fixed and unshakeable delusions.

    The issue that most interests me is the metaphysical one. It isn't whether some particular individual believes in something, whether God, unicorns or ufos. It isn't the importance of the belief and whether it somehow 'works' in that individual's psychology. The act of publicly making truth-claims about it moves an object of belief into the objective sphere. So the questions concerning the object of belief move from being individual, psychological and subjective, towards being ontological, epistemological and public: Should other people believe in its literal existence? Are beliefs about it really true?

    'Proof' is a very strong word. I'm inclined to agree that no apodeictic (logically necessary) proof of God's existence is possible. Yet philosophical theologians have tried to concoct them for centuries. (Aquinas, most notably.) They haven't had a great deal of success, but the fact that they've made the attempt at all does show that they felt that giving their faith a stronger foundation was important to them. (It didn't 'out' them as atheists, as some people in this thread would suggest.)

    'Evidence' or 'persuasive argument' are weaker ideas than 'proof' and attempts to produce evidence of God's existence or persuasive arguments for it might conceivably succeed. Religious experience might arguably constitute such evidence and conceivably the recent cosmological 'fine-tuning' arguments might someday be spun into a plausible cosmological theistic argument.

    I agree that many atheists of the more fundamentalist sort probably can never be convinced. They are as fixed against theistic belief as the theistic faithful are locked on its truth. But I believe that many of the more agnostic sort of atheists can be swayed by evidence and argument. But that requires that theists produce the evidence and argument, and not just posture about how superior their theism makes them and how atheists have hurt their feelings by disagreeing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
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  20. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not a hard atheist. I'm willing to consider evidence.
     
  21. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    To people of faith here, calling atheists delusional, ignorant, etc...isn't that sort of counter productive to ''witnessing'' for your faith? Not judging, but just an observation. Can't we share our beliefs without the need for ad homs?
     
  22. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    It's a testimony not an argument.

    Jan.
     
  23. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    What would regard as evidence that conclusively shows that God exists?

    Jan.
     

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