Open note for Moderators

Discussion in 'SF Open Government' started by Neverfly, Jun 1, 2012.

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  1. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

    Sorry about the loss of your pet.

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  3. Bells Staff Member

    Ah the gift that keeps on giving returns..

    Will this farce ever end?

    Wait what?

    I have never ever expressed any desire to meet you in person or to remember your actions here on this site if I was ever unfortunate enough to have to meet you in person. Quite the contrary.

    I believe I would have expressed the absolute opposite to what you are claiming.

    * Emphasis mine..

    Dude, seriously?

    What the hell?

    It's a forum.

    When you had returned to this forum, do you remember when you reminded me about an argument we had apparently had about 2.5 years ago or something? And you told me how you were so angry about it and how you had apparently forgiven me for it? I didn't even know what you were talking about. You shouldn't hold on to anger for that length of time, nor should you even have remembered it in such vivid detail. You see, when you post things like this, it gives the impression that you are a tad obsessive about things in an unhealthy manner.

    Now lets have a quick look at your response that you had spent all this time prior to the passing of your pet (condolences on that)..

    You were insulting, boorish, sexist, threatening, abusive, rude.. I could go on but I don't have all day.

    We were unfortunate enough to witness a meltdown from you. Or yet another one.

    What you posted was, to put it bluntly, pathetic Neverfly. It wasn't funny. Not at all. It was sad and pathetic.

    You need to grow up.

    You went through the proper channels but demanded an immediate response. It can sometimes take days to weeks. We are busy in our real lives and you are yet another person on a list to us. Your issues with me and all the other moderators and members on this site (there were plenty if memory serves me well) don't take precedence.

    But most importantly, your complaint was responded to and you disagreed with the outcome. Not everyone will agree with you and I don't know if you have noticed it or not, but you seem to believe that it is everyone else that is the issue, but not you.

    Think about it for a moment.

    When you have numerous people querying your posts or comments and you get angry because you think we are all somehow twisting what you say, could it possibly be that we are asking because we are trying to determine what it is you are actually trying to say. And when you then defend your post/comments, we are then under the assumption that this is what you believe?

    When you post on a forum, you need to understand that we are not privy to your true self or your inner most thoughts. We can only go by the words you use. So when you threatened me, and yes, I took it as a threat and others also took it as a threat because of the manner in which you strung your words together, I and everyone else were not privy to your thoughts.

    This does not even make sense.

    Do you actually think we want to spend our time dealing with you or the likes of you?

    Think about it for a moment. Would you want to deal with you? I know I certainly do not. And we have the joys of doing it for free. But we still do it, because we volunteer for it and when you volunteer for something, you get the bad as well as the good. Thankfully, in this job, we are fortunate enough to know that people like you are mere blips that don't really matter in the grand scheme of this forum. You come and then you thankfully go, either voluntarily or by being removed from this site.

    Suffice to say, Neverfly, you seem to care and think more about us than we do about you. We don't think about you when you are gone, nor do we sit there and compose posts to you in your absence.

    It was a threat. Again, we aren't privy to your inner most thoughts, so whatever was going through your mind at that point, we weren't privy to it.

    When you post things like that after the vitriol and hatred you spouted, it is seen as a threat. I was not the only one who saw it as such. To claim that I have apparently made the same threat against you.. well, I already addressed this above.

    Remember, Neverfly, you do not occupy my thoughts when you are not here. You only occupy it when I am unfortunate enough to have to respond to you. And then you are thrown out of my mind again.

    You don't get it, do you?

    It wasn't the words "balls" that was the issue.

    It was more your obsession with your testicles and how you seemed to want to compare size? I can't remember. But you had a meltdown and you posted in a way that, well, was embarrassing to yourself and possibly to your spouse who still posts here. I mean, is this how you talk and act at home? Or do you save that kind of 'speshual' for forums where you think that by hiding behind a computer screen gives you free reign to act like a pig?

    Whatever, it's over and done with and no one really cares.

    See, I am not going to bother pointing out the irony in this statement...

    We're done. You have apparently left this forum how many times now?

    We've moved on. You don't matter to us. Perhaps you will move on one day as well and we will also stop mattering to you... Hopefully..
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  5. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Farce indeed. I Never once said anything nor implied in any way anything about Meeting In Person. This is your typical lying, twisting, distorting dishonest flame war inciting Bullshit as the rest of your post you just made that I won't bother with. The whole post is as accurate and honest as a Used Car Salesmans pitch. In fact, the very post of mine that you quoted points out clearly it refers to interactions on the forum- Which is totally logical and plausible considering it's the ONLY option that ever was and ever will be.
    That bit about meeting in person is something you invented straight up off the top of your head- which is your usual tactic when you want to claim someone said something that they did not say.

    It's why I have cussed you out and you had the courtesy to follow up with your typical despicable behavior and show the accuracy in my words. I've left many times- not just me, either. You Drive People Away from the forum with your lies and twisting and distortions. Every Single Time that I've stopped posting on the forum- it was to get away from your machinations. No other reason. Be proud. Take credit.

    Thank you, Bells.
    How's about you just avoid me; I avoid you? I mean, if it all doesn't matter to you so much... Why can you seem to not help yourself from posting against me? It's really confusing. Back up your words and try stepping Out of the fight,e h?
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  7. Balerion Banned Banned

    An hour later...

    Well, that was quick.
  8. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Hey there, our favorite liar- After a week of waiting, he finally addressed ( I pointed out he made excuses) and I said take more time- TWO WEEKS later, I finally asked AGAIN- politely... no response...
    Days to weeks- hell- Try Months to Years. That seems more accurate. Only it doesn't- as you can see- you've been getting away with your dishonesty and flaming for many years. So maybe try- Eternity.
  9. Bells Staff Member

    I thought you had left.

    Here is your original statement, which is what I was discussing in my post above and what James and others saw as a threat:

    Remember, we don't know what goes through your mind when you post. Care to tell me where you meant "on the forum" in that sentence?

    My words were clear. I only deal with you when I have to deal with you. Now, you have left how many times now? I'm not the one sitting there for over a week typing out a response to a forum I have supposedly left, you are. I am not the one still bearing a grudge and anger about something that was said to me how many years ago now? You are.

    And I will defend myself Neverfly. I also have that right. Of course, you being the bully that you are, would prefer that I remain silent so that you can continue to try to deny what you actually posted.
  10. Bells Staff Member

    So you are saying you waited years for a complaint you made against Tiassa, what? A couple of months ago?

  11. Gustav Banned Banned


    openly mocking them, ja?
    you goad neverfly back in here with your flaming
    why not see it through?
  12. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Yes, because we're going to run into eachother AGAIN face to face, right?
    Inventive reading, indeed.
    Actually- no- more inaccuracies from you. I didn't bring up the examples of your piss poor behavior until you demonstrated your abusive manipulative deceitful tactics, Bells. Please, please TRY to be honest, will ya? It didn't come up out of the blue- It came up after you whipped out your usual tactics and I said, "Yes, I remember you." Nothing at all was said about your tactics- nor examples of it- until you demonstrated them in action, Bells.

    Not stay silent- Just stop the lying. You twist, distort and connive. I get tired of it and sadly for you, I have the audacity to not put up with it when you attack me with it.

    A couple of months ago for something that JamesR said "Save it." Never addressed but you NOW, Months Later, say I should have patiently waited days or even weeks for? Contradict yourself much, there?

    You complain now that I attacked you so you must defend yourself, Bells? I ATTACKED ALL THE ATTACKS YOU HAVE DEALT ME.
    No, you don't get to defend your deplorable behavior. You get to step back and think about it how appalling it is.

    You can keep the lies coming, if you wish. Post them all night long- for all I care. Other people read- they have brains- many witnessed your behavior in action. You cannot fool the ones who can see, Bells. Have fun.
    It's cruel to ignore someone who loves me so much.
  13. Bells Staff Member

    I think it was James and myself (possibly?) who lured him back by responding to his previous meltdown.

    Who knows really. Maybe he needs to tell us how big his testicles are again?

    Seeing that we have had at least one member call up the employer of another member after finding out who they were and tracking them down and others who out of the blue, called up other members, etc.. From my point of view, anything is possible with people who obsess over things enough. And you have clearly demonstrated that you do obsess about things said on this forum.

    Again, when you make such threats, we aren't privy to what is going on in your mind.

    You mean when I queried what you meant when you said 'it's logical for the black kid to stop and answer the questions of the stranger following him in an unmarked car at night'? Or when you PM'ed me about it?

    You have proven again, that you can't move on and let things go. You're meant to be mourning the loss of a loved one and you're here still not letting go and still not moving on.

    Neverfly, people are free to read our discussions.

    Try and paint it as you will. Remember, you were the one who sought me out after your supposed 'I'm leaving' and then threatened me and you have come back again, after apparently typing a post while banned (because this is what people do?) and again seeking me out to respond to you. Not the other way around. Remember, I asked Balerion and your wife to let it go, because you were no longer here. And here you are, after I type that post and you again can't let go.

    For god's sake man, pull up the big girl pants and move on already.

    You don't like me? I don't care. No one cares. You have an issue with how I moderate? Again, I don't care. You have an issue that I am a moderator? I don't care. I really don't. Take it to this site's owners if you don't like the response from James and every single other moderator you have approached about your complaints against me and Tiassa and just about everyone else.

    For fuck's sake, get a life already. You have a family. Spend time with them remembering the loss of your pet instead of stewing over stuff on an internet forum. Jesus, Mary, Joseph.. This is ridiculous.

    Because I am privy to everything James said to you?

    You don't even make sense.

    You threatened me. You don't get to defend that behaviour.

    You posted like a sexist and abusive pig. You also don't get to defend that behaviour.

    I am going to tell you the exact same thing I told your spouse and Balerion.

    Move on.

    People will read what we wrote if they so choose and make up their own minds about you, me and everyone else involved in those discussions.

    But seriously, move on.
  14. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Nor can you move on. You latch onto anything to attack your opponent, all out character attacks regularly, frequently and shamelessly. Just as you are doing here... Well, I fight back- sorry. You're deceitful, you lie about what people say, you distort the posts, distort their words and intentions and for all your frothing now, you're only living up to what you accuse me of being.
    Well, what was it that was sexist? Was it that I had said I had the balls to stand up to ya? What was it? You'' twist anything into an accusation- as demonstrated by your clear distortion and now- STILL- claiming you feel so threatened. Whatever, troop. It's still inventive reading on your part.
    YOU bring up where you did those distortions in the Zimmerman thread- yet you carefully neglected it was LONG before that when I said, "I remember you, Bells." Avoiding the impetus, are ya?

    Yes, I'm mourning the loss- but that doesn't mean I will step aside so you can abuse with impunity either- so stop latching on to that. I'll do as I see fit- not what you try to rub in my face. As I said, you can keep up the dishonesty, you can attack me all you want, you can claim it's defensive if you feel such but in the end Bells---

    You're just as guilty. So why don't YOU do what you always push me to do, ask me to do, demand that I do or advise me to do- why don't YOU step back, calm down and try to post when more relaxed?
    Chances are, we'll both have an easier time of it if we BOTH back off a bit.
  15. seagypsy Banned Banned

    I realize your post was directed at Neverfly, but anything directed at him indirectly affects me. He is my husband, and unlike the rest of you, I AM privy to his innermost thoughts. I understand him. Personally, I think there has been a lot of misunderstanding when it comes to the reactions a few, not numerous, individuals have to Neverfly. For that reason, I want to ask for clarification on some of your remarks and give some clarification of Neverfly's remarks before things get out of hand.

    Are you suggesting that he expressed a desire to meet you in person? Can you quote him where he said that directly? Or is this your interpretation of what he actually said? The comment he made that you perceived as a threat did not suggest any desire as far as I could tell.
    (bold mine)

    I appreciate this, thank you.

    This is your opinion based on a one sided perception. His feelings posted were based on his one sided perceptions of you. I think there is too much bad blood between the two of you for either of you to see the situation completely or even sufficiently objectively. At this point I don't think either of you are able or willing to see anything posted by the other as anything other than a psychotic rant. Neither of you are able or willing to see any rational thought put forth in regards to one another.

    Fair enough, he expected a response earlier than may be reasonably expected given the workload of the mods. But being with him at many times when he was reading PMs and given that he often asked me for feedback in regards to the correspondence, I can attest that the mods did not say anything that could conceivably give him confidence that his complaint was going to be given any creedence whatsoever. He was told quite early in the correspondence to "Save it". They didn't say, "Please try to outline your complaint in concise detail and we will address the issue as promptly as possible but please keep in mind that investigating a complaint of this kind can take a very long time so your patience would be greatly appreciated." Something like that would have been honest, respectful and polite. But he was told to "Save it". How can that be interpreted to mean, "hey we are listening but it will take us some time."? If the response had been given to indicate that moderation was willing to listen and take his issue seriously, then Neverfly would have no call to complain further.

    What do you mean by "numerous people"? How many people have "quer[ied] [his] posts or comments"? And what exactly do you mean by "query", because I have never witnessed him taking offense to simple querying. Twisting his words and misrepresenting his comments or grossly mischaracterizing him is not a simple query. It is a vicious, cheap attack on his reputation and integrity. If anyone were to claim that your posts state that you hate Jews, you would fight a very passionate fight to defend your reputation because it simply is not true. But I am sure there are a few people on this forum that by some bizarre method of language mutilation can in their own minds convince themselves that you have expressed a strong crush on hitler. For clarity, I am not saying that I believe this to be true or that you have ever posted anything suggesting anything remotely close to it. I mean this as only a hypothetical situation to help you understand why he so passionately defends his posts. Anyone would if someone twisted their words in a way to completely distort the reality of one's expressed opinions. You have done this to him, and even me on occassion. Maybe you didn't intend to or didn't realize how badly you misinterpreted his posts, but you also did not effectively express any desire to interpret his words in any way other than your initial knee-jerk reactions.

    Back to the concept of "numerous"
    He has only complained about James R, yourself and Balerion, one who complains about the same issues with James R that Neverfly does. Balerion has expressed the same frustration and indignation for dismissed by James R that Neverfly has expressed. Neverfly is my husband and that does put me in a position to appear biased. I realize this. Believe me, please, when I tell you, that I do not see Neverfly as infallible or as a completely innocent victim here.

    Mistakes in tactfulness have been made on both sides of the issue and perhaps you are both beyond the ability to redeem yourselves in each other's eyes. Maybe you have no desire to redeem yourselves. That's your prerogatives.

    It was taken as a threat because that is how you chose to take it. "See you around" would hardly be interpreted as a threat regardless of the context in any legal forum. I realize this is not a court room. This is a matter of layman opinion. As you said, you cannot know his innermost thoughts and in your defensiveness I can see why you might find it easy to interpret it as a threat. But the ease of the interpretation does not make it accurate. You could have asked what he meant by his remark rather than assuming the worst. I also perceived a remark by you directed at me as threat and you denied that it was a threat and held me responsible for my misinterpretation. Perhaps you can also take responsibility for your misinterpretation. Especially since he was accused of threatening your physical safety which is a serious allegation. Far less serious than accusing someone of threatening to moderate unfairly. Obviously, if the moderating body chooses to ban me permanently I will suffer no physical or emotional harm. I may be annoyed but I would get over it in a matter of hours. But an allegation of a physical threat could lead to legal repercussions that are far reaching and way beyond what is rightfully necessary.

    It doesn't matter what you want to do. Part of being a grown up is dealing with uncomfortable, annoying, unpleasant situations. Honoring your obligations, whether paid for or not. Sometimes it even means doing what is right by someone you dislike. Ignoring some issue rarely leads to it really going away. The complaining individual may leave, but silent like-minded people will go too, only to be replaced by similar people unaware of what they are getting themselves into until they are giving you the same complaints again and the whole cycle starts again. If you give someone, or in this case thousands of members, your word that you will uphold the integrity of the site and its policies then fail to do so because you don't feel like it, then you are simply not being a grown up. James R disagrees with wynn, and jan ardena so passionately some may think he dislikes them. I don't know if he does or not but he defends their right to hold their unpopular opinions and express them because it is the right thing to do. Sure it would be easy for him to silence both of them. But he doesn't. He also does not engage them in flame attacks or distort their posts or personally insult them as you have against Neverfly. Neverfly has expressed that James R lost his respect when he told him to "Save it". Until then Neverfly trusted James R to handle the situation objectively and sincerely. That trust was violated and Neverfly had a normal reaction to finding out the person he should be able to trust did not display the integrity Neverfly had been eagerly anticipating. If this forum and its policies don't matter to the moderating body then a disclaimer should be posted somewhere making members aware that the integrity of the site is the least of concerns for the powers that be. At least then maybe the expectations of some members would not be so high, or at least you would be able to point the disclaimer out and tell people "you get what you pay for".

    No, you simply misinterpreted it as a threat. As you said, you cannot know his innermost thoughts. Sure you can take it as a threat but that does not mean he intended it as one. And it is only a threat if that is how it is intended to be. The way something is intended can only be defined by the one who made the statement. There is no offense where none is taken. One chooses whether or not to feel threatened regardless of whether or not a real threat exists. QQ feels threatened and expresses it quite often. That doesn't mean that a real threat exists, does it?

    Perception does not equal reality.

    He doesn't tend to talk about you at home either unless one or both of us are actively reading or posting in the forum. In honesty I probably think about the forum when not online rather than him. If I bring it up when he is not reading, he usually expresses a desire to talk about something else or do something productive like work on the house. I tend to think about the forum often because it is a trivial distraction that gets my mind off of stressful things like the death of a pet or a persistently annoying exhusband.

    I don't think he was embarrassed and he certainly doesn't embarrass me. He is my husband who I love and respect. He isn't perfect, nor am I. I have the advantage of knowing him intimately so I understand where he is coming from and feel he is justified in his perceptions. If in his shoes I would likely not handle the situation as he has but I am not him. He is not me. If someone chooses to equate the two of us as having identical minds and character traits then that is a mistake on the part of the one who chooses to do that. I cannot control how others choose to perceive us, as a unit or as individuals. I will not bother myself to care how they choose either. Balerion dismisses any ideas I express on this forum because he dislikes Neverfly. He has the right to choose ignorance. I have the right to choose to ignore him, or occasionally mock him as he does everyone else. Occasionally, Balerion makes a good point that I cannot do anything but agree with. I won't debate an issue with someone just because I don't like them. I'm not perfect, I may misinterpret your posts and may have a knee jerk reaction. I make a conscious effort to avoid it but I fail miserably sometimes, like anyone else on here.

    As far as how Neverfly speaks at home is concerned, I can assure you that he is the same person no matter where you meet him. If you speak to him with respect you will get respect. And he gives respect by default to everyone until or unless they do something to lose his respect. He is brutally honest. He will not hold back if you ask his opinion on something. If I put on a pair of pants with horizontal stripes and ask him if they make me look fat, he will tell me the truth, that the pants are unflattering. I appreciate that, because if he tells me I look smokin hot, I know he isn't just buttering me up and that my confidence is justified.

    apparently some people do because it keeps getting rehashed. Balerion puts quite a bit of effort into ripping on him at every opportunity that is served up, and apparently, Oystein just couldn't contain the excitement he felt when he saw Neverfly, an old thorn in his side, fighting an online battle.

    I obviously care because anything that concerns him concerns me indirectly. It may affect me differently but I am affected.

    Perhaps you should have used the word "me" in place of "us". Just a suggestion. because as I stated before, he obviously does matter to some.

    And for the record it was Oystein and Balerion that went on an Anti-Neverfly Rant that I brought to his attention because I was wondering who Oystein was. He did not spend a week typing out a rebuttal. He spent about 20 minutes typing it out, if that much but noticed our cat was acting strange and completely forgot about the forum over the past couple of weeks just as I did. You may notice that I too have been silent most of the time. He was not stewing over this forum all this time. If I had not gotten curious as to whether I was missing something he would not be on here now. I half way wonder if Oystein isnt an invention of Balerion's. Maybe he needed to invent a friend to stir up the Neverfly issue. Maybe he was bored without Neverfly and just had to get him back. After all, what would batman be without the joker? Just another grown man running around feeling big in his pantyhose. Yes I suspect that Oystein is a sockpuppet for Balerion. Don't call me a liar. It is true that I suspect it. I am not saying it is a proven fact of guilt.
  16. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    wow! [subscribed]
  17. Bells Staff Member

    Seagypsy, with all due respect, I am not going to discuss this with you. I am not overly fond of having to discuss it with Neverfly, but I am not going to discuss it with you.

    This does not concern you.

    Whatever Oystein's weird reason was when he made those comments about Neverfly are his own. You had best ask him why he did it. No one else knows.

    I have given Neverfly my reasoning and explained how and why his comments were taken as a threat. You are free to ask him. But please do not ask me about it. Because I am not going to explain to you.

    This is silly enough without now having to argue with his wife about it, if that makes sense? I like you seagypsy and I find your posts entertaining and enlightening. You have a particular way of looking at things that is refreshing. But I am not going to discuss this with you. This was between Neverfly and myself and frankly, I have moved on.. When he made that post, I realised this was a lost cause. There is no point in trying to discuss anything with anyone who can post something like that. And I am sure as hell not going to discuss that with his wife. No offense, but this ended when he made that post.

    So I will repeat the advice I gave you and Balerion earlier. Move on..
  18. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Fair enough, and considering I think all that could/should be said has been said, I concur and will no longer discuss it. I didn't expect really to change your opinion, it was more for the benefit of silent lurkers that they see his points presented in a more diplomatic fashion in hopes that maybe, others will have more understanding and less hostility towards.... well either of you, really, in the future. Hopefully as various mods have instructed me in regards to dealing with obstinate posters both of you can just avoid acknowledging one another's existence on the forum well enough to avoid future conflict.
  19. Bells Staff Member

    Any respect I may have had for Neverfly went out when he made those posts. But again, that is between him and I and James and Balerion. Just as people will judge me for what I said to him in our conflicts, they will judge him for the things he has said while on this site.

    I am fine with people judging me negatively or as they wish to. I own up to my words and my arguments against him. I am not backpedaling or trying to make it pretty. It is there for all to see. Just as his is there for all to see. It is gone and past. Should I sit there and feel concern that Neverfly has a problem with me? No. I actually don't really care. If people are going to react with hostility because of how I debated Neverfly, then that is their problem and I am sure they will tell me about it when the need arises. But for me personally, when someone makes those kinds of comments and acts like that, then really, his being offended by me is of zero concern to me. As far as I am concerned, his issues on this site just became something that I am not going to take any effort or have a desire to try to resolve. So he can rant and rave as he chooses to. I'm done. Suffice to say, he lost my vote.

    Because he is not worth my time. If someone can say things like that to someone else, then they cease to be worth my time. And that is where Neverfly is as far as I am personally concerned.

    So advising me to avoid conflict with him, etc.. well it's a moot point. His coming out of the blue to make those comments makes it a moot point. But I can assure you, I have zero interest in even reading his posts, let alone having to interact with him.

    And that is how it is. I own up to my words against him.
  20. Gustav Banned Banned

    thank you james
    i suppose i deserved that

    i also suppose those are deserving of a ban as well

    this is the perfect opportunity to restore jdawg's faith in our community

    what is good for the gustav is also good for the jdawg

    give him a timeout to reflect on the error of his ways
  21. Emil Valued Senior Member

    Please excuse me that I interfere, but I want to ask if there is a big difference between "fuck off" and "fuck up" ?
    If someone "fuck up" can you say "fuck off" ?
    Or if someone says "fuck off" then he "fuck up" ?
  22. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Fuck off is usually used in the context of "go away". EG: "Why don't you fuck off" means "Why don't you go away!" It can also be used in the context of annoyance. EG: "That was a major fuck off" means "That was significantly annoying or inconvenient".
    Fuck up, on the other hand is usually used in the context of "Be quiet." EG: "Why won't you just fuck up." means "Why won't you just de quiet." It can also be used to describe an error. EG: "That was a major fuck up." means "That was a significant error."

    The terms can also be used together "Why don't you fuck up and fuck off" means "Why don't you be quiet and go away."

    I believe both terms can be used to describe people. Someone who's "An annoying fuck off" is a pest, but someone who's "An annoying fuck up" is essentially a bumbling fool.

    Or at least, that's my understanding.
  23. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

    That is just a swear word and as such can be used as an noun, verb, adverb and adjective. I have witnessed the exquisit use of that word in a sentance that made complete sense while employed as a construction worker:

    The sentence was, "This ____ing ____er is ____ing ____ed up". And it truly was.

    There is no difference between the 2 terms you used. The word is essentially the swiss army knife of the english language....
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