Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by wegs, Mar 19, 2020.

  1. Jeeves Valued Senior Member


    Well, that point of view - literally, the angle and distance at which one is placed in relation to the object one is regarding - matters quite a lot.

    Where you are and who you are.
    We're in a fortunate geographical location - in a self-contained house, within reach of a well-equipped small city in a prosperous country, with a quite intelligent and decent prime minister, who step out of of his quarantined house every morning to tell us what the government is doing, reassure us and urge us to act intelligently and decently. So that's all right.
    We're unfortunate enough to be in the most vulnerable demographic: in our seventies, and with multiple health issues. So that's a bit concerning.

    Looking farther into the future:
    + This crisis will test the ability of governments to serve the needs of people instead of commerce.
    - Some will fail more miserably than others, and some will fall - which is always messy and costly for the peoples involved.
    + But whatever governments do manage it well will have learned how to: in 18 month, they will have put in place agencies and policies that work - and they can start fixing a lot of our long-standing problems. Helicopter-schmelicopter! I wouldn't be surprised if we had UBI within two years, and a good deal more domestic manufacturing and local food production.
    - A lot of people will be out of work - and not just for a few weeks or months - permanently. The airlines and cruise lines will never make a full recovery. No matter how they're bailed out in the short term, many, perhaps most, will fold. The tourist trade will pretty much collapse - a good many hotels, theme parks, amusements and public attractions - will never have a reliable income. Many companies of every kind will go bankrupt, or downsize. That will cause a cascade of secondary unemployment.
    + Those people, if their material needs are met, will have time for education, hobbies, self-reliance, developing their minds and bodies, exploring what else they're capable of. Once they can come out again, they'll rediscover the joy of being with other people and they will bring more diverse skills to their community.
    +/- if travel and trade never recover, neither will the oil industry. That's good for the planet and other living things, but very bad for the oil-producing regions. People in Alberta and Kuwait will have to learn how to grow their food and build their shelters and make their clothes and *gasp* walk.
    ++ The air pollution over China and Europe declined dramatically. If the economic consequences do continue for a long time, that trend will also continue. In the most
    +++ extreme case, this virus might save the world.
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  3. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Are not Western style governemnts simply taking advice [as they should] from our scientists and medical professionals?
    Isn't it in the best interest of most of these governments to make allowances to avoid as much as possible a recession or even another depression.
    I'm sort of of the opinion even the most despicable government may come out of this looking on face value good.
    Or maybe I'm just a cynic.
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  5. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    It seems that you've found the proverbial silver lining.

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  7. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Who is “we’re?” We’re all not part of the same demographic on here.
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Most are, the US unfortunately, no.
    One would hope so, unfortunately the US, no.
    Not the US governement. It looks how it can make money on the current crisis.
    Beginning with doling out another trillion dollars to the richest companies and their billionaire bosses which can withstand large losses.

    I thought that Capitalism was founded on the principle that if you risk investment you are entitled to earned profits. Not, if you invest in a large company you are entitled to corporate welfare. That's not risking anything, that's just plain cheating.
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
  9. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    Some do... some of the time. Trump administration, not so's you'd notice, on any subject, at any time. Very few do it early enough to prevent the worst problems.
    Hard to say what's in their interest, just at the mo. Recession is unavoidable; depression of 1930's depth is probable. Way too many dominoes that they haven't even begun to consider yet.
    The bad shit hasn't started falling yet.
    We'll see. My partner suggested we write down our predictions and put them in a sealed envelope to look at in two years. (assuming we survive)
    It wasn't me. I think it was Gwynne Dyer mentioned the 'unintended beneficiary'.
    You asked for perspective. My personal "we" is two old codgers in converted schoolhouse in Ontario. My collective "we" ranges to include any group from the library volunteers to socialist/environmentalists, to Canadians, to all the rank-and-file of the world, and always excludes despots, generals, bishops, slave-traders, gun-runners, drug-dealer, pimps and billionnaires.
  10. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Yeah? Whereabouts? I'm in Hogtown.
  11. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    Oh, poor you! And not just because of the current situation. It was a good city to grow up in, but I'm glad we left when we did.
    We're close to Owen sound now.
  12. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

    For all the company's which laid off staff would Government (any world wide) work out a system where the government paid the workers wage and the workers continue to do the company work

    Owners and shareholders (include shares given to workers as part of wage package) no dividends paid

    They live on their cash holdings

    How does that sound (work)?

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  13. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    That's what somebody should tell the oil companies in Alberta. For decades, they've been trashing the landscape, resisting regulation in any form, killing local wildlife, slurping up all the water from farmers, poisoning the natives and walking away from thousands of contaminated, no longer profitable sites; when tasked with clean-up, they hedged and procrastinated and did nothing. They've also been raking in enormous profits.
    Well, they were entitled to that, because they took the risk of losing their shareholders' money.

    Now, they're crying over their lost revenues and demanding a bailout - ostensibly for their workers.
    Nobody asked: "With all those $$billions, how come you didn't put aside a contingency fund for hard times?"
    The federal government came up with a plan to employ those workers on cleaning up the abandoned wells.
    The political shills for the oil companies are crying, "But what about the oil companies??"

    They're big, big proponents of the free market when they're winning.
    When they're losing, it's suddenly a national problem.
    So, capitalism is: their profits, our losses.
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
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  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Corporate Welfare! Socialism!

    Well, losing money is part of the risk they took when making the huge profits. They are not entitled to being bailed out with tax-payers money for their losses.

    The laid-off workers are compensated by the government in the form of "unemployment insurance", which is paid directly to the workers, not to the company.
    The companies gambled and lost. Boohoo.....

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    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
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  15. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Agree - I take issue with millionaires/billionaires who want government to stay out of regulating their businesses but want a hand out from the government, as they lay off most of their staff.

    If Trump gives one penny to Disney, I’m leaving the planet. Or heading to New Zealand, which seems like another planet.
  16. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    So, like, is this pandemic going to provide an excuse to the nay-sayers and doom-mongers to reassess how well the Capitalist credo has been serving our nations?
    hoo-boy... trouble...
  17. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Maybe. Capitalism in its purest form isn’t the problem, late stage capitalism is, imo.
  18. river


    But Trump is not one of those . Not even in the same league . Intellectually .
  19. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    Has anyone ever seen one of those?
    No, actually, even if it had a pure form, turning an economic convenience into an ideology was never a good idea.

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