Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by thecurly1, Sep 16, 2001.
Which one is it? Fight, Not fight and prevent? Make up your mind.
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Violence begets violence.
Peace begets peace.
Is that why, in USA, we have so much domestic violence? And one percent of our population are in jail?
The irony is that, that is what our enemy believes strongly too! -to resolve many problems they face.
I would love to see a perfect peacefull resolve where the terrorist group disbands, the countries apologize and Bin Laden hands himself in.
I'd also like to have sex w/Britney Spears, neither of my hopes will soon come to fruition.
I am deathly afraid that if our response isn't quick, strong, and decisive then this nation and freedom will be on one knee for a long time. We can't afford not to fight at this point.
Give Peace a Chance
I am really sorry that the US, and indeed countries throughout the world have suffered so greatly at the hands of what amounts to madmen. I know that I have been accused of being unrealistic when it comes to what response the amassed United Nations coalition (read here US military - as they will make up over 95% of the task force) should take. I just think caution is in order.
To say I am really impressed with US politicians at this point would be an understatement. They are actively searching out the truth before responding. They are at this point saying all of the right things.
I guess the thing I would say for everyone to do is to put yourself in the position of the average Afghan. Know at this point that they don't have as ready access to media as we do. They have a state-sponsored station. That station is spewing its own brand of propaganda. They are saying that the US is going to invade them in order to take over. That they will massacre Afghans everywhere. They are afraid. Realize too that by far the vast majority of Afghans don't hate the West, they would in fact love to live here. That's why there are so many immigrants that come to the US and Canada. Fear is the thing that causes the problem. If people are afraid, they react with anger. That's been a common thread throughout this entire conversation. If the coalition forces its way into Afganistan and other soverign nations, the people will be afraid but will react with anger. And more people will die. And there will be more anger...and more people will die. It is a cycle that has repeated itself since the beginning of time.
The cycle has been talked about for centuries and I know that there are no easy answers. I just think that maybe we should start looking for them.
If Bin Laden is proven guilty, then I would applaud his capture. I would also love to believe that the US could put an end to terrorism forever. I just don't believe that it can happen. The U.S. State Department now designates seven world governments—Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria—state sponsors of terrorism of these, however, only Iran is known to have been directly involved in terrorist attacks in the past few years. For an extensive list of terrorist organizations (so many it will scare you, go to http://www.ustreas.gov/ofac/t11ter.pdf
As far as the statement of "thecurly1" goes,
I strongly disagree. I do however applaud the strenght of convictions that is presented.
God Bless everyone, and may no one have to endure that kind of violence or any kind of invasion again.
You know tmegeney I'm kinda imbarresed that I hadn't though of the Afghans in quite the same luck. By no means do I want a military action for revenge. I am all to aware that vengence only breeds vengence and that it is extreamly wrong morally and ethically. But I do want a response that will snuff out most of this terrorist BS that's been going on. Personally I think it should have been handeled more strongly years ago, but I'm not bringing politics into this.
It must be a scary thing for these Afghans to be thinking that the United States is going to do horrible things. The Japaneese during WWII said that we were going to invade and rape women and children. Thank god that never happened, except for in a few unfortunate cases. I hope that we can completely remove the Taliban, which in my oppinion is the most evil regime, at par with Hussein. Once removed we must rebuild that country, and other's if need be, and do so in a fashion that will promote growth, and stability. I believe force, followed by kindness is the only way to end this.
Here is the problem. If Osama (By the way, that is his name and most people in Moslem countries use that name) plotted the strike, he should be punished based on our laws. But what if in this specific incident, he did no such thing. So are not we jumping to the conclusion, like the guy they grabed for Atlanta Olympic bombing?
Revenge is sweet if you are after a small group that have no backing. It will turn into a full scale war if we go in guns blazing. There is a billion Moslems out there. This is not a domestic event where a cop can kill an unarmed person and get away with it. You go and start killing innocent people because somebody from their side did the same will surely cause WWIII.
And when the WWIII starts, everyone will be afraid of using nuclear bombs. That is because, this time the other party has it too. If Japan had N-Bombs during WWII, we would not have used it, otherwise we would have said good bye to New York and L.A. Here if we use N-Bomb, the other side will do the same. So when we start using conventional weapon, there will be major damage both sides.
So, the best solution is a peaceful solution with the guilty party punished in the eyes of the world community. And that is what our Govt is trying to do.
The logic train stays on track for a little bit, but then completely derails because WWIII won't start, as a matter of fact I doubt that the phraise "the Third World War", will ever be used because of its Nuclear Holocaust stigma. This will most likely be called the American-Afghan war or something similar. Anyways, the Afghan's don't have nukes, and if they do have bio or chem weapons they aren't going to use them.
Mutual Assured Destruction even works on a third world country. If anyone used a weapon of mass destruction upon American or colition troops the response would be a NUCLEAR one, that they would regret.
Peace won't solve this. The terrorists speak on language, death. They are fluent in this profane language, and we must speak to them in their own native tounge.
Whether or not anyone ever calls it WWIII has no bearing on whether or not WWIII can happen. What's in a name? I think it's dangerous to assume our response cannot start the chain of events.
I think the US government is aware of the possible danger, that's the only explanation I can come up with to explain why I, also, have been impressed with their response, so far. Impressed for the most part, anyway. We've still had to listen to: "Wanted Dead or Alive" ; "We will rid the world of evil doers" ; "Smoke 'em outa there holes". But those ARE just words. They are pursuing this in a wise manner, so far.
Then They did....we will...they would...we will...they...we...
I am not worried about any major attack anytime soon after we bomb a few civilians. What I am worried about is their small attempts to terrorize. That is bad for business. - unless we take out the root. Then I am happy. I really do not care how our govt does it, I will support it.
Last post for me here
I have been as vocal as anyone in this thread, but I think this will be my last post here. Its not that I dislike solid debate, let me tell you its what I thrive on. It's just the dark underlying tone.
Killing people won't bring anyone back. In war, regardless of intent, innocents die. I want the guilty party to be punished. I just don't want anyone else to die. Would it make anyone feel better if Afghans died? Punishment is not about death.
...just goes to show how the prevailing feeling is wrong. The Afghans don't want us there. They don't want us to rebuild their government. They don't want western influence on their culture. Kindness from us would be to leave them alone.
Did you know that the US has a lot to do with the Taliban being in power? When Russia invaded Afghanistan, America supplied the Afghan rebels with weapons. That civil war ripped apart the nation. Could the US just not have forced the Russians themselves to leave? Wasn't suppling weapons, training and counterintelligence a kind of terrorism itself. Actually some of those trained guerillas may now be the terrorists. After Russia left the country was in turmoil. Various political groups were fighting each other for power. The strongest group, by happenstance those with the most America weapons swept into power.
As far as chemical and nuclear weapons go, who knows? But the prevailing opinion in the intelligence field is that currently Afghanistan has neither. Pakistan however has both. That is part of the reason why the US sought to get Pakistan on their side.
Lastly remember that terrorists come from many places and are not all of one religion. Some of the countries that house and train terrorists are: Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Northern Ireland, Ireland, Israel, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Syria, Lebanon, Liberia, Angola, Namibia, Chad, Sudan, Libya, Algeria... do I need to go on? The list is VERY extensive. These are not countries where terrorists are located. These are the countries where training facilities exist for terrorists. This list is from a page by the US government. They know where a lot of these people are. A war that would attempt to eliminate terrorism would be similar to a war on drugs. Idealist and impossible to win.
I really hope that those responsible are punished. It would show the power of justice. I just don't want anyone else to die.
As to why I won't post here anymore. There is a quote that I read a long time ago but it holds merit here: "Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding".
Good luck everyone and happy debates. I'll talk to you again on other threads.
If it was about kindness I think they should have left the WCT buildings alone. Ever remember as a kid sticking a stick in an ant pile and what happened after that? I am afraid the hill has been stirred with that one. Really well. All that is left now is to see where the ants go. For going they are.
Every time I stuck a stick in an ant hill, the main thing I noticed and what impressed me, was how fast they repaired the damage and went on about their business.
Good luck to you. No matter how much we squabble here, good or bad - does not influence government policy decisions. It is done more likely by the Fortune 1000 lobbist group.
The only thing I say to you is that the forum is a microcosm of sentiments expressed elsewhere in the society. It is mostly for your edification and knowledge. Knowing and learning your place in the world. It is possible that someday one of our members may take part in our destiny as a catalyst. So, indirectly, may be you have a contribution here too....
The fact of the matter remains. Get the people responsible. OK now what wait five maybe ten years for the rest of the U.S. cities to be devastated by the other terrorist groups that are all tied together with this one.
If we don't act swiftly and powerfully we look like pussy's. Don't think for one second that they won't attack again as soon as we let our guard down.
We have to rid the world of all the terrorist groups possible while we have the worlds sympathy. This is the perfect opportunity to take the necessary steps to insure OUR safety. I don't care how many innocent people have to die. To unsure MY CHILDREN LIVE. I don't care who is in power over there as long as they support our actions in this matter. You keep on talking about them and what it will do to them, saying if we do something they will retaliate. Guess what we did nothing to start this and Guess what the last I looked We're short a couple of towers and a lot of INNOCENT AMERICANS! These people are not afraid to die for their beliefs which they've proved time and time again. Well lets give them what they want. I'm tried of the U.S. helping out the world and then being SLAPPED IN THE FACE! Is it so bad that for once we would like to do the right thing FOR US nobody else.
This is not about 1 or 2 terrorist. This is about insuring that they will be incapable of retaliation. Yes! Wiping them and their supporters off the face of the planet. I don't know about you but I don't want my CHILDREN TO EVEN KNOW WHAT A TERRORIST IS LET ALONE BE A VICTIM OF ONE! In my opinion we are the strongest country in the world! We should act in our best interest for once!
May death come on swift wings for any and all that wish ill will upon the country were I live!
I grow tired of people not understanding! This WILL NOT GO AWAY THROUGH POLITICS! WHAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT THESE PEOPLE AND THEIR BELIEFS! THEY ARE RAISED FROM BIRTH TO HATE AMERICA! YOU THINK THIS IS GOING TO GO AWAY! LOOK AT RACISM IN AMERICA! WHAT YOU THINK THAT IT'S JUST GOING TO DISAPPEAR! WAKE UP!!!!!!
THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT WILL NOT GO AWAY!!!! WE HAVE TO MAKE IT GO AWAY ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!!!!!!
SORRY! BUT I AM GROWING EVER MORE PISSED THAT ALOT OF PEOPLE REFUSE TO FACE REALITY AND HIDE BEHIND MORALITY!
THIS IS ABOUT THE SAFETY OF THIS COUNTRY! IF YOU REALLY THINK YOU CAN TALK THIS OUT OF EXISTENCE????? THEN I'LL BUY YOUR TICKET, PACK YOUR BAGS!! IT WAS NICE KNOWING YOU!!!!
Guess what, I'm back...
This message from Patman appeared in my hotmail from sciforums and I could not just let it go.
Most people are calm and decent. They have honest opinions and share them decently. But Patman, let me just say that you are as much as a terrorist as the people who struck the WTC. You are spreading hate!
You know, Hitler was a great leader and much beloved amongst his own people. Did that make him right? NO!!!
As far as your rant goes Patman, thats why I said that I was going to stop particpating in this forum. You views are so narrow minded as to be laughable. You are so worried about how the US will look, well you know what, outside of the US, your country is perceived as war-like and expansionist. Even amongst its allies. As far as the US helping out the world, what exactly do you refer too? Maybe how you protected your own interests in Kuwait, while ignoring the greater social problems you left behind? Maybe how you ignore human rights issues in your own country? Maybe how you force your narrow view of the world on others?
The US is a single nation on a great Earth. It is the most powerful one and with that comes great responsibility. Why don't you just see what your leaders are doing and follow their example?
You want others to die for your beliefs, fine. Try explaining that to God or whatever diety you choose to believe in. You say that you are pissed well great. So is the rest of the world at what happened. But instead of demanding INNOCENT DEATH, why don't you simply contribute to the relief or rebuilding efforts and get on with your life. I donated blood today. Did you?
Move on. Hate Mongers are a dime a dozen. Apparently there are as many of them in the US as in the Middle East.
As far as everyone else who has been mad as Hell at the situation but at least thoughtful, thank you. I have some great American friends as well as friends in the Middle East. I don't want any of them to be statistics.
Right on, Patman! It looks like self-defense has gained a new label...<i>"Hate Monger."</i>
America is the latest victim of hate mongers. We agree with you. Enough. Please join us in this noble resolve. Your support would better serve the world.
First, I would like to say that I believe in having passion and emotion in life just as much as intellect. I believe in a passionately and intellectually integrated life. I think they are both strengths of humanity; rather than cold, distanced calculation and observation. Therefore I will not condemn Patman's post as too much ranting and not enough rational discussion. I think both can coexist. I must, however, agree with Tmegeney for what he is saying and presenting. I am sorry but Patman's post sounds like the "American Party Line" regardless of whether or not you agree with the bombings, and regardless if you think something should be done about it. I am not even addressing those issues.
Did nothing to start this? I am sorry but I don't see America's political and economic leaders as peace loving, just, humanitarian people minding their own business upon which some psycho evil group decided to lash out because of jealousy of America's opulence. I think the world events in recent world history need to be looked at in greater detail, kept in perspective and an entire world view needs to be taken, not just a narrow interpretation of this event.
Tired of the U.S. helping out the world and then being slapped in the face? When was the last time you slapped someone in the face for helping you? How realistic does that idea even sound? If the U.S. is indeed being slapped in the face perhaps it is for unsavory conduct more-so than humanitarian aid? If money or aid is truly being given to other countries, then for what purpose? Out of the kindness of America's heart? Are there strings attached? Is there a "You're my indentured servant now" type underlying theme? I am not saying that the people of this country (America) are cold heartless people out to exploit the world. But I also don't believe "the people" have any real say in the political or economic scene in the country to any great extent. We are just taught that "freedom, democracy, justice for all" balderdash to pacify us and make us think that we actually have all of it, so we won't take action and stay out of the decision makers way. It is the decision makers that boil my blood, not "the people", except when "the people" continue to wear the blinders that allow the decision makers to keep their power.
(Please note that I have said nothing whatsoever about what to do about the tragedy that occured in New York, that was not the intention of my post)
"...Patman....You are so worried about how the US will look, well you know what, outside of the US, your country is perceived as war-like and expansionist. Even amongst its allies. As far as the US helping out the world, what exactly do you refer too?"
tmegeney, I am saddened by your words. The U.S. has helped other countries when their finances were faultering, jumped in immediately when natural (and manmade) disasters have struck in foreign countries, aided in providing economic growth and agricultural development in poor countries, and backed other countries when they were not able to defend themselves. In return what have we asked for? We have cleaned up our own natural disasters, worked through our own financial difficulties, and figured out how to feed our poor, with little or no assistance from other countries. Canada has also benefited from being our neighbor. We have a large military force and would use it to defend Canada, as well as ourselves. This frees up funds for Canada to use in other areas. I'm not saying the U.S. is perfect or that I agree with every decision the government has made, but I've never thought of us as war-like or expansionist. I've always felt we have a great passion to make the world a better place for everyone. I think Patman was a little too extreme, but I think the U.S. isn't as bad as you seem to be making it out to be. Maybe my perception of what you said is inaccurate. Please let me know if I am misinterpreting it.
In my opinion, we need to find out the hard facts before any military action is taken. That's the most important thing! bin Lauden may be the most likely suspect, but it's possible that he may not have been the instigator. One thing I would (stereotypically) say about Americans, is that they want instant gratification and I worry that action may be taken too quickly out of impatience and an urge for retalliation. If bin Lauden does end up being the one behind the terrorist attacks, we need to be very careful on the action that we do take. In prior wars, it was country against country and that was clearly defined. In this case, terrorists associated with bin Lauden's organization are scattered among many countries, with no clear bullseye. That makes it a different kind of war than we have faced in the past. While, I personally don't condone bombing a whole country over one or two individual terrorists, I do feel that we can't idly stand by and do nothing once we find out who's behind the acts, either. I think the whole world has come together in agreement that the terrorist acts that occurred were unjustified and threaten all nations, not just the U.S. Once we find out who they are, maybe the whole world will unite and squash the terrorists that have placed an evil dark cloud over us all.
I agree with your words and about the ideals of the US. What I was trying to say is that sometimes those things are perceived in different ways by other people. I know after rereading my message that I expressed it wrong, but I was really put off by the comments of Patman. I respect his right to express his opinions, but....I don't know, nobody should ever condone killing innocents. As far as the US itself goes, let me say this.
In Canada, we love being next to the US. We have the world's longest unprotected border. We also attempt to achieve complete free trade with the US. We watch American television. Actually, these days there really is little difference between the majority of Canadians and Americans. I can't speak as to the idea of US protection of Canada as I really don't know. We feel somewhat smothered by our big brother sometimes, but not as a nuscience only as family. Understand though that Canada has sent or asked if help was needed during almost every disaster that America has suffered through. Humanitarianism is one of the ideals on which Canada was founded. Indeed, it was a Canadian, Lester B. Pearson who founded the United Nations.
Now having said that understand that sometimes when the most powerful country in the world decides to right wrongs, it will anger some people. Do you remember watching westerns growing up? That frontier atmosphere was only lived through by the US and to a somewhat lesser extent by Western Canada. Other countries don't understand the concept of the Marshall or the posse mentality. In Newfoundland, on Canada's east coast for example, the constabulary (police) didn't wear firearms until a few years ago. I don't want to speak for other countries, but Islam doesn't really like the US in large part due to the US support of Israel. And sometimes, Canada included, countries do things that are in their own best interest. Personally, as I don't want to speak for anyone else here, I feel that the US invaded Iraq for its own self interest. Did it need to be done anyway? Probably, but my contention is just that your government needed to call it for what it was, and not say that it was only there to free Kuwait. It was over oil (and that's okay - but admit it). As far as US civil rights, in a country where racism is as prevalent as it is, there is still work to be done. Not that Canada is 100% non-racist. I can only wish. As far as homelessness, do you realize that there are more homeless in NYC then in some Canadian cities. Don't get me wrong, we have homeless people here too, just fewer per capita. I don't blame the US for any of this, but the problem exists.
This has nothing to do with the WTC or Pentagon disasters. I feel so sorrowful to anyone who has suffered during this time. I just don't want anyone else to die. To some, that's unrealistic or idealistic, so be it. Life is just too short to be hell bent on revenge. If anyone wants to be hell bent, lets be hell bent for justice.
kcollings, you seem like a very reasonable person and I applaud that. I am sorry that my previous rant made me sound anti-American.
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