Please save the tigers

Discussion in 'Earth Science' started by Chatha, Nov 17, 2006.

  1. valich Registered Senior Member

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    "If you love something, let it go.

    If it doesn't come back, it was meant to be free."

    Apostle Paul
     
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  3. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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  5. valich Registered Senior Member

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    I discourage you from captivating an undomesticated free-roaming predatordy mammal, but I have never said that I was unwilling to work with you on doing it. Quite to the contrary, right?

    Born free: run free. I stand for the conservation, preservation and continued existance of wildlife.

    But I have never said that I condemn what you want to do by having a mountain lion as a pet raised in your home. Quite to the contrary, I told you numerous times that if you do decide to do this, I sincerely hope we keep in touch, and I have you given you my personal email address in hopes that you do so. I am here to help you in your endeavors.

    We have an excellent veterianarian team here in Flagstaff (husband and wife) that advertises expertise in "exotic pets," with five veterianarians working for them and a total staff of about 30. Aside from my neighbor, I know that we do have a number of other people here in Flag with wolfdogs, many ferrets, snakes, and I've heard off a fox. I will ask them if they have any experience in dealing with pet mountain lions. They are very open and honest. They have even told me that if I have a complicated orthopedic problem that they would rather refer me to the specialized multi-team veterinarian orthopedic clinic that we have in Phoenix. This open and direct honesty is very commendable.

    I have never told you that you should not do what you plan. I have only given you the opposing point of view in an objective sense. Should you proceed in your endeavor, I will always be here for your help and support. As I have said, I helped put together the Mountain Lion Management Plan that we submitted two years ago and my advisor is one of the foremost reknowned experts on mountain lion behavior in the world. What more can I say or offer to you for support? It is to your benefit that you should be aware of the facts and aware of what you are getting into.
     
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  7. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

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    Hahahahaha!!!

    Yes. Whatever you do don't captivate the poor beastie. What are you some kind of hypnotist or something? Tigers should not be turned into somnambulists. That's just crazy talk!

    Sorry.
    Carry on.

    Heh.
    Captivate...
     
  8. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    Thank you, Valich. I've been having trouble telling where you stand on this. I still don't understand why you would say that pitbulls are killing machines or that these animals are so dangerous that society must be protected. I'm not saying that we need to hunt for ways to test the idea that the animals are safe. I'm saying we don't have to be paranoid.

    If I do get some big cats I will probably not be in Arizona unless some policy changes go through there. Most likely that means I won't be in Arizona. There are better states that are more likely to actually keep the freedoms. Freedom has never come without some kind of price. Maybe it's not as safe where it's free but I think that the people are a little happier.

    One thing that I came to understand about this is that if I buy an animal and keep it for a few years, I give that animal a few years of life. If something happens and that ends prematurely, it means that I didn't do as well as I would like to have, not that I did something wrong. I want to be with them forever. The dogs that I have had for their lifetimes have been with me for too short a time. The lifetime of a pony or donkey is barely adequate, thirty years or so. But if I give one or two animals as little as five years of an enjoyable life, I have still served them and that is the way I will always see it.
     
  9. valich Registered Senior Member

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    You keep returning/regressing to this idea that someone is trying to take away your freedom? I am not part of that rank, whoever they are. I am all for civil liberties and this is what we fight for here in Arizona. Arizona would be one of the most safest places for you to have a wild pet without being "paranoid" because there are a lot of people that would defend your right, including me! Geez!

    The problem is that mountain lions need lots of territory, miles of hilly land, where they can use their own "civil liberty" to hunt and prey. But as mountain lions come into contact with suburban communities, their behavior changes. Pets and livestock become prey, and there is the potential for human fatalities, as has recently occurred in Southern California. Their natural instinct - which you can not change - is to chase, catch and kill.

    Born Free: Live Free


    "If you love something, let it go.

    If it doesn't come back, it was meant to be free."

    If it comes back, it was meant to stay.

    Take a mountain lion and allow it to have its own civil liberties and freedom to choose if it want's to be your "pet," or if it wants freedom. To do otherwise is hypocritical of everything that you've posted.
     
  10. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    What human fatality occured recently in Southern California?
     
  11. valich Registered Senior Member

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  12. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    do you know how easily the governments could fix all animal problems but they dont care, they need money for new bullets,,


    peace,
     
  13. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    Approximately 500 people have been killed by horses in the U.S. since that fatal cougar attack.

    I don't know why anyone wants to promote the idea that being killed by any big cat is something to be feared so much. Horses are killers. I know several people who have been injured by horses. Not only does almost no one get alarmed at having these deadly animals around, they act like you're a wuss if you are alarmed by their presence. I realize that they are killers yet like almost anyone else I will walk right up to one and offer friendship and pets.

    The only way to solve the problem of animals killing humans is to completely physically separate them and it isn't worth it.
     
  14. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    Valich, you think it's bad for me to want to make pets of these animals, but this stuff about the attacks, about the animals being so threatening to people, it's passive-aggressive and whiny. We're so afraid of them that we have to kill them if they intrude upon the space that we took over to accommodate our increasing population. That's just god-awful. Your "interface" has the alleged guardians of the animals continually forcing them back from the lands that humans take over, and humans never take over land that it worthless to the mountain lions. They take over fertile ground and often do not even grow food on it.

    As far as I am concerned our obligation is to provide them with food and living space to replace or even improve on what we have taken from them. All I have available these days is store-bought food and the best cages that money can buy, and truly mean-spirited people are using force to try to prevent me from doing that. If I have a pet who happens to be a lion, I am providing a safe refuge where that animal has a much better chance of survival than it does anywhere in America. It's one of the lowest forms of bigotry to decide that each such animal is a nuisance animal. About the only thing lower is deciding the same thing about wolves, which even more rarely kill anyone. This is looking a lot more like a campaign of hatred and destruction. This campaign also badly misuses certain ideals, like in some ideal world maybe humans would not cage animals, and there are negative things about caging animals. The result of this misuse is more deaths and fewer lives preserved. Since this is also part of the program of the people who destroy animals and nature, you can bet that they have a real stake in exaggerating the extend of the negative effects of captivity. Since they continually manage to destroy the animals that people keep and never take responsibility for saving more than a few of them, it is also safe to say that they actively destroy animals.

    I still think you're trying to talk your way around these facts.
     
  15. Chatha big brown was screwed up Registered Senior Member

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    whatever you say...you are the man
     
  16. valich Registered Senior Member

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    You obviously do not know anything about mountain lion instinctive behavior. They are not cuddly little pussy cats that you can keep in your home to sit underneath the lamp shade or curtain: they are wild undomesticated animals that need free space to roam and hunt. We try to provide them with the hundreds of miles of territory that they need without encroachment on the human interface. This natural innate freedom that they are born with is what we are dedicated to provide them with as best as humanly possible - for their own wellfare, preservation and livelyhood. As I have already delineated to you with the Sabino Canyon-Tucson incidents, we went far beyond what could reasonably be accepted before we were forced to intervene. The mountain lions were showing up at elementary schools in the early morning hours when little children were walking to school. They were stalking people and this created a clear deadly threat that had to be dealt with. There was no other alternative. Two were relocated to a preserve.

    We do our best to provide them with the natural habitat that they need to survive in their ecological niche. We are not locking them up into a cage or a house: we are providing them with their natural habitat that they were born to have. Born free: live free. They are not an endangered species, nor do we kill them to limit their population. We are doing what is right and best and good for this magnificent animal to survive and endure for the benefit of itself and for all prosperity to come.
     
  17. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    When we "lock them up", we preserve them. A lot of people who keep cougars find out that they are quite happy to be pets and companions.

    Your "interface" is like the "interface" of a forest fire. Humans go in, the animals are pushed out. Everyone develops on land that was first prime forest then prime farm land. When it comes down to choosing one over the other, the animals are killed to make way for the humans. You don't kill to limit their numbers, but it works out the same when you kill them to get them out of places that humans have decided to colonize.

    I'd rather go with the people who breed them in captivity, increase their numbers, and work them into human society. It is safe enough. It is good for the animals.
     
  18. valich Registered Senior Member

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    Come on Metakron, you're being nonsensical and absurd. Go to your local police station and spend a few days in jail.

    Would you rather we "lock you up", or preserve you in your natural habitat with freedom? A lot of people who keep Metakrons find that they are quite happy to be with these pets and companions.

    Yes. Our "interface" is like the "interface" of a forest fire. Both are dangerous and lead to destruction: both we try to prevent. I told you already many times that we try our best to limit human encroachment. When the government can establish a preserve, refuge, or national forest or park, we buy back the human habitats that are in it and force the people to move out. I often go hiking with my dog in the Coconino National Forest here and I know of a few sites where there are remnants of an old log cabin where the residents were evicted to maintain the natural wilderness. Are you suggesting that we should eliminate all natural habitats for mountain lions?

    Human encroachment is a big problem, but I think that here in Arizona - and also Alaska - we are at the forefront in our efforts to prevent, contain and minimize it. Are you suggesting that we should eliminate all of a mountain lion's natural habitat? That we should do away with pristine nature?

    Go have your pet cougar. I never said that you shouldn't. I only advised you to be cautious and outlined some of the possible likely scenarios. These magnificent beautiful animals do need a lot of land. In the wild they have a 100 square mile territorial range: females about 60. The males are about 8 feet long head-to-tail and weigh about 100 pounds - not much more than a Saint Bernard. Their average lifespan is about 12 years, but in captivity they can live to 25 years. That's a longtime. So you need to plan on devoting one third of your entire life to care for and be "responsible" for it.

    Again. Go have your pet puma. But you certainly cannot condemn our efforts to sustain it and its habitat in the wild. Not all animals can be domesticated, nor should they. This goes against the flow of Nature and what is right. We should try our best to preserve our wildlife and Nature for ourselves and for all posterity to appreciate and enjoy.
     
  19. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    What I condemn is when you act as if your solution is "good" and mine is "bad." I personally would not mind a jail so much if someone came to visit with me and love on me every day. If I had female companionship of my own species it would be even more bearable. I don't believe in the talk like they're so terribly unhappy because they don't have five hundred square miles to roam around in. Any person can tell if an animal is happy or unhappy unless they blind themselves with ideology that says that they are unhappy period.
     
  20. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    Valich, you might have guessed by now that I don't agree with clearing away animals because they might be potentially dangerous to people who are living in a new housing tract. I haven't worked out the percentage of the land that humans are taking over, but when you count farms as places that indigenous life are barred from, that's getting to be a really large percentage.

    I consider pet ownership to be something that is often enough very rewarding to both human and other beasts. You mentioned selfish desires and I think that those selfish desires are the most reliable force that we can count on for the preservation of any genome. As long as they increase the numbers to some rather large and sustainable level, I am all for selfish desires. I will even grant that those desires are good things.
     
  21. valich Registered Senior Member

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    Cougar cub at 6 weeks old

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    "A cougar cub found wandering alone in Wheeler County, Oregon was euthanized in Bend on Saturday after a veterinarian examined the animal and decided its health was poor and it had little chance of survival. Although here in Mitchell, cougars ARE a huge problem, even in town, this little guy was rescued and we were told they had found a care facility for him in Minnesota. Bob and Will took very good care of him with two pounds of meat and fresh water." http://www.katu.com/home/video/4827551.html

    Poor little guy!
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2006
  22. valich Registered Senior Member

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  23. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    That's a really sick policy that Oregon has. Kill it because the facility is not accredited by the AZA? Their stupid "policy" is worth more than the animal's life? This is why I do not like these animal management types and will avoid them whenever possible.

    Continuing the rant: The AZA asks for regulations like this and then expects me to respect them, when they are this disrespectful of life and of my concerns. Then people want to act like I'm doing something wrong when I want save lives?
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2006

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