Please save the tigers

Discussion in 'Earth Science' started by Chatha, Nov 17, 2006.

  1. Chatha big brown was screwed up Registered Senior Member

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    No, the real world is that private or not, everybody has to deal with smuggling, theft, and poaching.

    Where do carcasses come from? And why can't they come from government establishments either?

    Yes, but where is the dead Tiger going to come from today?

    Private farms have been existing for years, where is the evidence of their sole success?

    When Tigers were plentiful you had a point, but today your idea isn't going to work
     
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  3. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    Hey. I know for a fact that private ownership creates more homes for more tigers. Not all of them are going to have perfect conditions but most of them are going to have adequate conditions and better than they can expect in nature.

    My idea is to remove all but the most basic restrictions and treat it like any other farming practice. I don't believe your reasons to say that this is stupid or wrong. I don't think that anyone should believe them, but believe what you want as long as you let me do what I want. You're just going to have to trust me if you don't care to help.

    There are bad owners. I don't see where even one of these animal rights or animal welfare organizations differentiate between the bad owners and the good owners. If they can't do that without their rules and regulations, they can't do it with them either. All that I see them doing is saying that every private owner is bad. They say that they can prove this because they can find bad private owners. So if Ted has a tiger who looks underweight, not only is he a bad owner, but so are Tom, Dick, Harry, Charlie, Mary, Beth, Susan, and every other owner in the business. That's all the evidence that they ask for. The slightest thing that they can say is wrong with one owner, they say that it applies to every owner and every owner is worse than that, utter barbarians who always starve their animals and can't do a thing for them. At the same time they claim that governments can do a better job than individuals, an idea that has been disproven many many times. Even a government has to hire good people and let them do their work or it gets nowhere.

    In America there are only two things that really threaten tigers held by private owners who know what they are doing. These are vandalism by animal rights people (ALF) and other idiots, and the efforts of animal rights organizations to force people to give them up. Poaching is pretty much non-existent. Why raid someone's farm to steal one when you can go to auction and buy one really cheap? The system to prevent poaching is already in place.

    My idea, as I have already said, is to remove all but the most basic regulations. None of the regulations really help besides basic welfare regulations, and hanging regulatory agencies around people's necks doesn't help either. Then, if there are any animal rights or welfare organizations that actually care to help animals, let them find out what the best practices are and let them publish those practices, but as long as they continue to be a pressure group against private owners, they should be ignored and starved of funding.
     
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  5. Chatha big brown was screwed up Registered Senior Member

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    We have tried that, it failed. It failed to such a point that their population fell under CITT's critical endangered list, and 4 species of Tigers disppeared. I can find proof for you. I agree with the American part though, but even that will take very serious monitoring. The U.S governent won't take any nonsense, it is the same way they have revived many endangered species like the Eagle.
     
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  7. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    And?

    Why must they come from government establishments?

    Did you happen to see the word "warehouse" in that article? They have carcasses in warehouses just waiting for legalization.

    The AR organizations keep saying that there are 20,000 tigers in the U.S., a number that I think is barely enough but it is a proven success.

    They are plentiful in private hands. Their numbers can be doubled in two years, quadrupled in four, and so on. It is because they are so rare in the wild that it is urgent to do this thing right now. Also, did you catch the part where they said that China has about 4,000?

    Really, this is a case where the "Save the Tiger" people are now complaining about how saving the tiger is done, and how it isn't being done exactly the way they want, and their reasoning is no longer valid. The supply of tigers for medicine is already greater than the supply that can be had from poaching, it is as accessible as any other source of meat with no hassle, the success is already there waiting to be recognized. If "Save the Tiger" wishes to survive as an organization and get all those donations it had better swing over to the right side.
     
  8. Chatha big brown was screwed up Registered Senior Member

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    (laughs) You don't believe in NGO's but you believe the AR. See how full of shit you are again...

    You know for sure? Where is the evidence?
     
  9. Chatha big brown was screwed up Registered Senior Member

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    I'm tired of this arguement, I'd just have to believe you and hope for the best.
     
  10. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    Tell me exactly what was tried that failed. I don't know when deregulation was tried for any of the CITT stuff, but I was talking about removing most of the restrictions on private ownership. We don't need even one tiger from any wild population to make my plan possible, but it would be a good way to place orphaned cubs that would die anyway.

    In other words, deregulate the breeding and ownership of big cats and other exotics raised from populations that are already captive. License and regulate the use of captured animals from wild populations, only to make it a bit more of an uphill climb, but for goodness sake, it is no crime against nature to save orphans. Don't worry so much about the fact that there will still be some poaching. Do focus all energies on increasing the numbers of tigers that exist.

    If you are worried about the failure of efforts to reintroduce tigers to the wild, I'm not worried about that. This is a goal that should not be allowed to eclipse the importance of establishing a large living population where we can. Put them in the wild, they will have a much greater chance of dying without having offspring. Keep them in captivity until we have tens of thousands of them, then when we do have a safe place to put them in the wild we won't waste irreplacible lives from tiny populations. And don't worry about preserving genetic purity of subspecies. That's the biggest mistake that they're making because that forces a lot more inbreeding than all but the sleaziest breeders would engage in. Aim for less than one hundred percent and introduce enough new blood to prevent genetic defects from inbreeding.

    The problems that the wild populations have do not justify taking away the rights of private owners. I don't appreciate anyone using such problems as weapons against human rights, and I especially don't appreciate it when it is done to slit the throats of people who are actually doing the work to save the tigers instead of being a pressure group pain in the ass. Let private owners attend to their business and let the ones who want to preserve the wild tigers try to do that. They can work together. Whoever drove the wedge between them is either stupid or malicious, maybe both.
     
  11. Chatha big brown was screwed up Registered Senior Member

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    There are plenty of farmed Tigers in Asia, regulation was virtually non-existent like you said, look what happened.

    (yawns)

    Regulation is only for critical engangered species. There are only 7,000 Tigers left in the wild. The captive Tigers are obviously a lot less regulated, people can do whatever they want to do with those.

    What the @!%# is all this

    .
    Tigers are extinct or on their way, the reason why they are being nursed so carefuly right now is because any slip will ensure their very extinction.
     
  12. Chatha big brown was screwed up Registered Senior Member

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    Not so in Asia and Russia

    Only in America can that work.

    I feel like weeping..but I'm just too angry to

    In America, and ONLY in America.

    (laughs) Isn't that cute....
     
  13. Chatha big brown was screwed up Registered Senior Member

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    So far you have come to argue but came with no proof. I am going to laugh my head off when I find out that I have been talking to a little girl behind this computer. Raising a Tiger is a lot different from protecting a Tiger, and the two are a lot different from a domestic cat. There is no evidence that private farming in Asia has helped quadripled the Tigers population, in fact the population seems to be going down every year. You are living in your little sub urban atmosphere and have no idea of Real life, you hae no idea the extent people will go through to make a buck. Tiger Trafficking syndicates are highly organized and efficient, it's not your local grocery store robber. Tiger trafficking syndicates range from East Asia all the way to East Russia, they hold a good amount of wealth. There are a lot of things that go into protecting endangered species.

    You have to create awarenes and publications, you have set up meetings, you have to protect and monitor interest groups and fanatics, you have to be able to recover a missing tiger, you have to set up facilities to make the Tigers happy, you have to travel to the locals and teach them about Tigers, you have to develop and subsidise alternative medicine otherwise used from Tigers, You have to set up fund raisers, you have to keep track of current Tiger developments ad eminent threats, you have to set up very efficient investigations to combant and trace criminal rings, and you have to still try and be there for the tigers.

    My best plan for the Tigers is to take them to the U.S, the U.S fish and wildlife has better experience and sophistication with such occassions. They reintroduced the once fading and endangered Bald Eagle. Besides, the network for criminal masterminds are concentrated in Asia. But even this is going to take some form of regulation otherwise the Asian and South American cartels will swoop in again, and before you know it the little population we have in captive is in danger. Either way, smuggling Tigers as pets or for fur has to stop...for now.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2006
  14. Chatha big brown was screwed up Registered Senior Member

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    Thats why we have artificial enviroments owned and operated by organizations. The zoo and Reserves are a fair example.
     
  15. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    You don't seem to be trying to prove your point anymore, Chatha.
     
  16. Chatha big brown was screwed up Registered Senior Member

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    Where is your evidence? Can you even prove anything? Lets say I want to believe your sick ideas, where is the evidence?
     
  17. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    What's sick about my ideas?
     
  18. Chatha big brown was screwed up Registered Senior Member

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    Your ideas are okay but the part about deregulation is questionable...you think the government hasn't tried it? They probably did....and because we fail to see any good result we aren't trying that again.
     
  19. Chatha big brown was screwed up Registered Senior Member

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    The U.S.A is the only hope for the Tigers, I don't even trust anyone else...NOT even the Indian and Chinese government. I don't trust Asian farms either, I definately don't trust those fuckers.
     
  20. Chatha big brown was screwed up Registered Senior Member

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    If you have any other idea on how to revive Tigers, I would alway slike to hear from you. But something a little less generic and more realistic please...Their population is a lot less than that, the problem is alot more critical, the problem is that you fail to realize how bad their population is at any given time
     
  21. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    We have thousands of tigers in the U.S. We can make thousands more tigers from the tigers that we have. China is making thousands also. It is that simple.

    Farming isn't "sick", it's an old and honorable way of life.
     
  22. Chatha big brown was screwed up Registered Senior Member

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    Okay, good to hear that. But do you have any evidence?
     
  23. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    Simple biology, and the historical record.
     

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