Politics and Climate Change

Discussion in 'Politics' started by geordief, Apr 3, 2019.

  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    About 63 million, in the last Presidential election, agreed to let their climate be controlled by Exxon.
     
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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,644
    Or, if you can stop the warming, and it will cost less overall to stop it than to rebuild - then plan for that. And make it happen.
     
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  5. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    That's what a benevolent world dictator would have done.
     
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  7. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    7,447
    none
    (profit has no demand to make sure you or anyone else survives. politics in the American bi-partisan model is used to divide to rule to gain power, NOT to provide peoples needs))

    social myth for corporate greed benefit
    (outsourcing/public health workers rights and human rights and environmental law avoidance)


    culture & technology is rapidly changing as a perceived construct of conservatist ideological philosophical culture indoctrination matched with power structures and authority control.

    can you swap out the word change for "die" and maintain the same meaning ?
    rapidly dying planet?
    rapidly dying species ?
    rapidly dying culture ?
    rapidly dying technology ?
    rapidly dying mental health ?
    rapidly dying perception of entropic universal properties of conservatist greed models of insular individualist ideological paradigms ?

    ...
    =
    ... trump muslim ban
    ... trump bathroom ban
    ... trump trade ban
    ... perceptions of dictatorship vs democracy in the real working model seems to be a bit of a stumbling block to the true nature of the real working processes of the modern working examples of basic democratic power systems.

    equally so with socialist or communist or feudal or tribal or monarchy's

    many countries still have dictatorship laws in place for the monarchy
    meanwhile having socialist extremist laws forced by tribal systems

    soo...
    maybe you could add some more thoughts to hone the possible realm of natured debatable answer in a working model ?

    great topic !
     
  8. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    7,447
    this indeed is the topic of the hour.

    BREXIT is a bit of a wind tester
     
  9. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    8,476
    who?
    me?
    I did not cause the warming and sea level highstands(which were at least 6-9 meters above current) of mis 5, mis 9, nor mis 11(and possibly mis 7)
    I do not know how to stop those natural processes.
    Do you?

    cost is irrelevant

    Do you know what caused the higher than today's warming of those interglacials?
    Do you know what caused those sea level highstands?
    Do you know how to stop them from happening again?
    Do you know if we are in another super-interglacial?
    (I suspect that we just may be)

    caveat:
    As they say in the stock market
    "past performance may not be indicative of future results."

    Which gives no one licence to ignore the past.

    .....................
    personally:
    I have been carbon neutral for over 1/4 a century
    You?
     
  10. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    We know of one thing that did not cause them - a dramatic and unprecedented anthropogenic boost in CO2 levels, such as the one currently causing the uniquely rapid AGW.
    So what we learn of the past is valuable information, but must be considered with care. The past moved very slowly, compared with what we are causing now.
    Especially the recent political past - the past fifty years of what the Republican Party has become in the US, for example, and its influence on our ability to slow or ameliorate or adjust to AGW.
     
  11. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,644
    Yep. You, me, all of us.

    I have two EV's that I charge from solar. In fact, we get all our energy from solar, and most years run a surplus. I bike to work anyway. We have a fairly large garden, and we get a good percentage of our food from it (10-20%) for about half the year. And we eat a mostly plant based diet anyway. I plant at least a dozen trees a year in canyons around here near water sources.

    But am I carbon neutral? Almost certainly not. Farms ship foods to me. I fly occasionally. I have a house and cars that required energy to build. I buy clothing. Etc.

    I suspect you are similar.

    So what can we do? More of that. Push for carbon neutral shipping. Start changing over cement manufacture (a huge user of carbon based energy) to a more renewable process. Accelerate next gen nuclear.
     
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,644
    Most Americans would not consider such a person benevolent.
     
  13. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,447
    from what i have read, roughly 4 times the speed of previous warming.
    what was noted and seems to be a real game changer is the unknown exponential warming that the increased speed of warming may have.

    it appears that those in power seem to appear to act like their power & money will protect them so they dont care.
    That is part of the human psychological problem of having to declare a superior position of power and control over any given group before the group can interact intelligently & productively.
    part of the human survival complexity is the aversion to change with mixed in random changes.
    risk taking rewards being gained by the collective at small loss reinforces the variant miss-representation of the risk factor.

    when this is applied to the group think function it ends up being;
    'the majority of people are doing ok so we better not change anything & if we do change anything we better not change it much, only a tiny bit'

    this is traded off with fear of loss leveraging the greed component of basic survival instincts and social culture.
    it seems this false logic may be a species survival issue in various ways.

    irony
    no such thing as a free trade ?
    yet free trade seems to be something of a conservatist factualised philosophy
    it almost panders to animism
     
  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    Misquote.
    Most Republican voters and media and Congresscritters would - if their behavior, rather than their rhetoric, is taken as evidence.
    They would have assumed the benevolence as a property of the dictator, of course. The benevolence of all their actions would therefore follow.
     
  15. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    5,089
    What Americans consider wasn't the question.
    What Americans have considered right and good and benevolent for the past 196 years - not that they even kept their word according to the Monroe Doctrine itself - has not been particularly good for the world, the climate or any living things.
     
  16. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    54,036
    Who gives a shit? This is a problem of the commons. People who like to deny the issue try to turn it around and make it merely a problem of personal responsibility. We know the solution, emit less carbon.
     
  17. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,089
    If all the Chinese workers and Indian farmers and South American migrants and Middle-Eastern refugees could afford solar-charged electric cars, that might help. Some. If they all stopped eating beef and buying electronic gadgets and building with concrete, that would help. If they didn't use all the roads and skyscrapers, airplane travel and food trucked in from wherever, and plastic packaging - yes, that would help a lot.
    But you'd still have to do something about the armies and all their vehicles and other crap, which is not an individual choice.
     
  18. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,476
    remember?
    <----libertarian socialist

    Gee what a pity that everyone does not exercise personal responsibility.
    (sigh)
    "If i was disappointed, it was because i expected too much."

    Ok:
    You seem to be advocating for change............ok
    change via
    cultural change
    or dictatorial change?

    cultural change
    How you gonna do that?

    dictatorial change
    um.................................................................................................................................................................................................
     
  19. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,089
    What difference does it make?
    At this point, change would have to be a lot more than
    which would have had to start in 1905 (electric cars instead of internal combustion; local energy generation instead of the grid; local food production, instead of massive import-export)
    Even a world dictator with absolute power and all the armies under her command, could do no more than mitigate the worst effects for most of the people... Even if there were a non-zero prospect of such a saviour coming/returning, she would have to been born c 1980 - in the right place and circumstances to grow up.
     
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    Regulate corporations and tax rich people, for starters. Same way we got sewer and water systems, say.
     
  21. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    54,036
    It's not enough. The so-called tragedy of the commons is a well known phenomenon. Good governance means saving people from their own selfish impulses, the desire to steal from the future to benefit the present.
    Not cultural change. Collective action by way of representative government. Ever heard of it?
     
  22. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    7,447
    yet the right wing claim the church should have domain over the law & while also driving social cultural morality.
     
  23. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    5,089
    Yah. That's where you get maced and tazered and pepper-sprayed by your serve-and-protect public employees.
     

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