Pour les Canadiens

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Undecided, May 28, 2004.

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Canada Votes.

  1. Liberals

    4 vote(s)
    20.0%
  2. Conservatives

    6 vote(s)
    30.0%
  3. NDP

    7 vote(s)
    35.0%
  4. Bloc

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Other

    3 vote(s)
    15.0%
  1. Despotic Registered Member

    Messages:
    18
    As per the military, why should canada not have a stronger military? It's really a disgrace the state that its in now. Of the already negligable ministry funds, 51% goes to the office administration, where 49% goes to troops and equipment. We didn't really choose not to go to Iraq, even if we wanted to, our military absolutely couldn't. I'm not saying we should have it at any level close to the Americans, but we do have the worlds largest most unprotected border. Our navy has helicopters that can't go up. Submarines that can't go down. For the place Canada wants to take in the world, not only politically, but economically as well, a better military is a pre-requisite. I'm not even necessarily proposing more spending, just better spending. Canada needs a respectable armed force.
     
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  3. Undecided Banned Banned

    Messages:
    4,731
    As per the military, why should canada not have a stronger military? It's really a disgrace the state that its in now.

    The problem is that the Conservatives want to imo Americanize Canada (like they have been doing since Mulroney). The Cons. (pun intended) want to increase military spending by $1.6 billion per annum effectively doubling Canada’s military budget. Do you know what that means? Our more important social programs will have to their budget growth slashed, and even cut. Most Canadians (I included) don’t want to see that. If Canada wants a relevant military we should make our military into the most elite fighting force in the world, and getting rid of the excessive tanks, and other heavy machinery.
     
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  5. dsdsds Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,677
    Canadian Military? What would we do with a few more tanks and helicopters? We are (and will be for a while) 100% dependant on US for security and everyone knows that. Any Canadian presence in any current war is purely symbolic. I agree with Undecided that we should spend all of our current "military" budget on developing elite tactical forces or intelligence agencies.
     
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  7. Despotic Registered Member

    Messages:
    18
    Like I said, I didn't explicitly say we need to increase spending. Smarter spending would be a good start. Personally, I think that the government right now that's in place is much to fat. I'm by no way shape or forms a minimalist, but I really don't think the Governer's General budget should be anywhere close to what it is. There is a point where more people in an office is not a good thing. Isn't it called the diminishing labour productivity principle? Something like that. I'm aware this means some jobs will need to be lost in the government sector, that doesn't mean the economy will collapse as some people who think any job loss of any kind will result in.

    I'm always weary of the Americanizing ideology people want to throw on Harper. I'm not a fond supporter of Harper, but the rep is pretty unnecessary. It's fear mongering by the Liberals if anything.

    Personally, I don't think select privitization in the healthcare system is really a bad thing. By subcontracting out some aspects of the system, (laundry services, diagnostics as per doctor referral etc) it will alleviate much strain on the system. Think about it, somebody is diagnosed with cancer. They still had to wait to see the doctor as does everybody else, and before they get treatment they need a CAT scan. If you privatize the diagnostics, it enables the people with money to get that before they can get onto the waiting list for treatment. There's still legitimacy in that they're not jumping ahead of the line. They're just getting to the line earlier. Since firms doing such diagnostics will still be partially subsidized for patients, there's no worry that service is decreasing, but it's reducing the governments costs for the uber-expensive diagnostic tools, and staying arguably within the bounds of having a better accesible system for all. Just my view though.
     
  8. Despotic Registered Member

    Messages:
    18
    Update: Layton officially lost my support. "Canada has not opened its borders enough to immigration" Two words. Bull. S---. Oooooh a one time only bill so that for every immigrant they can bring one "family" member back. Family as a loose term for close friend, or neighbour, or co-worker, etc. Hmm. Canada has missed out on 1 million new Canadians. We need to let 50,000 more immigrants in a year???? What the hell for????
     
  9. buffys Registered Loser Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,624
    Well, it's starting to look more and more like my vote will go to the PC's now. The polls are making it clear that a Liberal minority gov't is a very real possibility, the best end result available I think. I wouldn't like to see the PC's in power but a Liberal majority is just as bad so I figure I'll add to the opposition and cross my fingers.

    The more I think about it, as long as the gov't is a minority I almost don't care who actually wins. At this level, the fundamental differences between parties is minimal if not in rhetoric then in practice.

    I just want a strong opposition, whoever wins. Without it the gov't ends up resembling a monarchy.
     
  10. Undecided Banned Banned

    Messages:
    4,731
    Think for a second here shall we? The liberals stated that the level of immigration needed to keep Canada’s population up to snuff is around 300,000 ppl per annum. You know how much Canada get’s? 250,000 we are below the levels of replenishment. If Canada didn’t have immigration the population of Canada would begin to depreciate greatly over the next 50 years. Canada needs more immigrants, the natural increase is a mere 1%, and that’s even dropping. Unless you want to be like Russia with a declining population, Layton is right.
     
  11. fireguy_31 mors ante servitium Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    667
    I've stayed quiet long enough - quite possibly to the pleasure of most. No longer!

    I don't get too caught up in the weeds of strategic voting i.e. theorizing a 'minority' government. From my vantage point, a vantage point which has me looking out from the 'inside', I've learned that an effective government (politicians) is tantamount for a functional government(civil service). Truth is, a minority government is not effective, it lacks leadership, it lacks a plan. Why? Because everyone from the backbencher to the Minister of Finance (the most prestigious appointment of cabinet) are skittish, always looking over their shoulder, indecisive, walking on glass. They're afraid of a non-confidence vote in the house, a vote that would send them packing. So, ultimately, nothing gets done with a minority government.


    My opinion is this: find the party with the best plan, the plan which suits you best, and vote for them. If a minority government forms, so be it. The parliamentary system of government is designed to have the 'minority' status as a default, not as a choice.
     
  12. Jack_Quack GO FLAMES GO Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    39
    What is wrong with a declining population? The world is already overpopulated? SO many people die each year of starvation. Even though we have enough food to feed them.
     
  13. Porfiry Nomad Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,127
    The issue is clearly not a declining world population, it is a declining population in Canada. If we fall below replenishment levels, the economy will contract and Canada's political power in the world will decline. Nevermind military spending as a means to maintain a presence on the global scene, if Canada's population contracts we'll be even less relevant and no amount of military spending will matter.

    Is this comment motivated by anything except racism? It's an overused comment, but need I remind you that the vast majority of Canadians are or are descendants of immigrants? I would not exist if my grandparents had not left Japan, Poland, and the Ukraine to somehow manage to intertwine their lives in Canada.
     
  14. buffys Registered Loser Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,624
    Its funny, I hear my grandmother and many others of her generation lamenting the influx of immigrants to canada and ALWAYS gloss over the fact that their parents were immigrants themselves. The really amazing thing is they don't seem to even realize they're doing it. When I put the fact of my grandmother's immigrant heritage to her she looked at me in complete puzzlement, as if I had started speaking greek. It occurred to me that she genuinely considered her parents as somehow different from the new immigrants.
     
  15. Despotic Registered Member

    Messages:
    18
    I would favour a minority government if it were institutionally possible to have it be effective. As stated, it's not. Hence electoral reform. If the parties knew that they had nothing to gain by making the government weak (as in if they could obtain a majority from the electorate), they'd have the motivation to co-operate, and in fact make better laws.

    Alright, firstly, I forget who said it, but i'm going to plagarize them anyways. It's not racism, if you hate everybody equally. That being said (in good natured humour in case you missed the boat), I'm not against immigration. I think we have quite enough as it is. I have a sincere problem with how our immigration is currently handled. I have a problem with how we're accepting so many immigrants from Asia. Don't even consider ripping in on me for being racist against Asians. I also have a problem with how current immigrants who do make it in, are forced to have menial jobs because this specific administration won't recognize their qualifications. Case in point, a Pizza Hut delivery man in my area is from somewhere in the former Eastern bloc. He has PhD's in biochemical engineering, but because they were from Soviet controlled countries, we do not recognize them. This qualified immigrant is therefore forced to deliver pizza, instead of taking a leading role in an expanding industry. The same goes for China.

    Here's my justification now for not liking the number of Asian immigrants flooding to Canada. Canada is a nation of ethnic diversity. That is part of what it means to be Canadian. A melting pot of different cultures, different foods, different languages, but the key term here is 'melting pot'. I'm not too sure how many people here are from BC, or have ever been to BC, but certain areas of the Greater Vancouver area do not experience this because of how certain areas are just so entirely dominated by ethnic minorites. You don't get ethnic diversity when approximately 90% of Richmond is Chinese. It's almost the same for areas of Surrey with East Indians. When our ancestors came to this country, they came with the intention of -becoming- Canadian. I'm beginning to feel like an immigrant in my hometown (not Richmond, and definately not Surrey for the record). Canada has 2 official languages. If i'm walking down the street and i can't recognize the characters on all the signs, nevermind what they mean, I think something needs adjustment.

    Additionally, people know Canada already has such a horrible immigration and refugee system, that they come here to abuse our system. Draining resources on our courts, our police, our social services. I thought somewhere it stated that a refugee has to go to the first available safe haven from an area you're fleeing from. I didn't exactly know Canada was the most accessible place to get too when fleeing war zones and floods, and famines, and droughts. Planes aren't that cheap, boats aren't that common. The boats that do get here are smuggling people, but the people on such craft are paying like 60,000 dollars to get here. Real refugee.
     
  16. buffys Registered Loser Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,624
    I lived in richmond for six years and then moved downtown for a few years... god I missed richmond. To this day, it's still the best place I've ever lived. I think you'll find that the first generation immigrants may well live here never learning english and clutching to their countries of origin by staying in small ethnic communities but their children (in my experience) act and live as canadian as I do.

    What you are seeing now has always happened, it's just isn't european countries moving here as much these days and therefore they're more obvious.
     
  17. Despotic Registered Member

    Messages:
    18
    No, it has to do with how the immigration policy is structured. 90% of the immigrants who applied here during the Trudeau era would not be admitted. That doesn't seem like too much of natural trend to me, especially considering the last decade of the 20th century.

    I'm just finding it now, that there's so many new immigrants, that they are the majority in classes and just in the community, so they don't develop into naturalized citizens, they just keep their own language culture and traditions. I just feel extremely alienated when I'm in my hometown, and I can't read signs on the street. I'm not even beginning to suggest that we impose language laws, I just don't think it should need to be an issue. Thats how our 'melting pot' is disappearing.
     
  18. Porfiry Nomad Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,127
    If you moved to a foreign country, would you not do the same? I've only been living in Australia for three months now, and I find my sense of Canadian patriotism to be greater than ever. It feels quite alien, even though there's the huge benefit of not having to learn a new language. Obviously I do my bit to fit in, but it sure is good to run into a fellow Canadian every once in a while.

    That said, the children of immigrants are naturalized very quickly. My father's parents were both straight from Japan and despite being brought up in a Japanese-centric community in BC, my father retains almost no Japanese qualities. He can barely speak Japanese and certainly knows little about the culture. As for me, I couldn't tell you any more about Japanese culture than anyone else. It took one generation to transition most of the way and by the second generation the lineage is totally naturalized. That seems pretty quick to me.

    I was always taught that the Canadian ideal was a mosaic not an American-esque melting pot. We value diversity and cultural integrity. The Americans value homogenization and integration. I know our history has several episodes that might dispute this, but that was the mantra I was taught.
     
  19. Undecided Banned Banned

    Messages:
    4,731
    As an immigrant I am quite offended by the over-generalized statements of Despotic. People come to Canada for a better life, for a better social safety net, for a future. I am a Canadian and I am proud to be one, but I am also from where I originated from as well, and I do keep my traditions as well as that of Canada. Coming from Toronto, pretty much everyone is an immigrant and we all are tolerant of each other. Immigration and our diversity is truly something that is an example of Canada worldwide. If we want Canada’s economy to collapse, and if we want Canada’s average population to be 65 then go ahead stop immigration. But if you enjoy not having to pay 90% tax to support the baby boomers we need immigration. Also Despotic, I do note an anti-European feeling in your comments. I am of European origin, and I have yet to hear any complaints of European immigration, why?
     
  20. Despotic Registered Member

    Messages:
    18
    Where did I say immigration is bad, or that we need to stop it? I'm saying the system is flawed, this is how I see it is flawed, and if you don't agree with me, don't. I also don't recognize me trying to impose a new system, but just saying that the system Layton wants makes me unable to vote for him.

    "If we want Canada’s economy to collapse, and if we want Canada’s average population to be 65 then go ahead stop immigration. But if you enjoy not having to pay 90% tax to support the baby boomers we need immigration"

    A lot of that statement has to do with other things than immigration. Like I said, I never suggested we get rid of it, but I see the healthcare system and post secondary education being the principle problems for an increasing tax rate, and a decrease of jobs. How tuiton is increasing so that many lower income students aren't getting the opportunity to get the training that is ever more becoming required, and also, how universities administer international students. At triple the fee's I can understand why. Again, I can already envision people ripping in on that saying I'm anti-anybody who's not Canadian already, and thats not the case at all. I love Canada to death, and I don't think that we get enough respect abroad as we deserve, because of how we mismanage things so severely at home.

    "Also Despotic, I do note an anti-European feeling in your comments. I am of European origin, and I have yet to hear any complaints of European immigration, why?" I'll gladly answer the question, but I'm not quite following.
     
  21. Undecided Banned Banned

    Messages:
    4,731
    Canada has missed out on 1 million new Canadians. We need to let 50,000 more immigrants in a year???? What the hell for????

    Sounds like an endorsement to me don’t you?

    but just saying that the system Layton wants makes me unable to vote for him.

    You won’t find anybody who would disagree with Layton on that one. Layton is simply repeating what Jean did; Canada needs more immigrants for its mere survival. It is not like we have a choice here.

    “A lot of that statement has to do with other things than immigration.”

    Like what do expand…

    I see the healthcare system and post secondary education being the principle problems for an increasing tax rate, and a decrease of jobs.

    Why do you think Health Costs are going up? Our population is soon not going to be able to support a public healthcare system. Our population is rapidly aging and fewer workers are available to work. Canada’s economy will shrink, and for every one retiree there will be only 2 workers to pay for that retiree’s pension. If we got those extra million immigrants we would be better off indeed.

    I'll gladly answer the question, but I'm not quite following.

    Read it again, it’s not incomprehensible.
     
  22. Shmoo The CzarnaChapka Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    101
    If we elect the Liberals into government this year, we are sending a very strong message. We are telling the Liberals that they can waste and waste money, and they won't be held accountable. This will only give them a greater sense of power, and consequently make them an even more careless party. You need to scare a party, and make them know that the public is in control. When parties fight for votes, it is the citizens who win.
     
  23. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,113
    Undecided,
    In spite of any disagreements we may have had in other threads, let me say "Welcome to Canada."
    Whenever I catch myself thinking, "Those damn immigrants..." I stop and remind myself, my grandparents were immigrants. Whatever I say about you, I'm saying about them.
    I hope you do as well here as they did.

    And in spite of all we say about having no choice, etc., we're better off than a lot of places - as many immigrants know only too well.
     

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