Powering the World With Alternative Energy

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by TruthSeeker, Jun 12, 2007.

  1. Echo3Romeo One man wolfpack Registered Senior Member

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    At what load? Residential electrical service in the US is 200 amps at 240 volts, which equates to 48kW.
     
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  3. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Again in a solar system, efficiency is only important to the extent that low efficiency increases cost. (The "fuel" costs nothing and will become heat no matter what man does.)

    For example Si solar cells will never exceed theoretical limit of 22% and in practice 12% is good, but higher efficiency can reduce area, structural, copper wire etc demands /cost so is good, it not too costly to achieve. One problem with PV solar cells is that the BOS (Balance of System) costs, which include the insulated coper wires, periodic cleaning, repair and DC to AC converters etc. are at least half the cost. Things like the anaconda or the Hydrolic water piston wave energy system (or wind mills) are relatively small in area com compared to the area the effectively capture energy from. (Just as you TV antenna pulls energy from much larger cross section of the advancing EM wave that its physical cross section.)

    No didn't see any text, just a movie. From what you say it is quite like the system I described basically an indirect use of waves to pump air thru turbine. I like my vesion better as fishing boat hitting large steel float will be what is destroyed, but the prop (or nets steel wires) will cut (or slice thru) the rubber of yours etc. Also what about a piece of drift wood or floating bottle swallowed and keeping one of the valves struck open? Seems like that would shut it down. Going out in boat to fix is negative energy production as well as cost.

    IF you want to be serious, focus on the life cycle (30 years) cost, not the cleveriness or efficiency of the system. SCRBHTB (Simple, Cheap, Rugged; Brings Home The Bacon.)
     
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  5. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    1) the system is closed cycle, there is not water intake and no chance of any seawater material getting inside the rubber structure.
    2) There are .pdf of their scientific reports somewhere on their site, or you can do a scirus search.
    3) I'll take the chances of a ship hitting a cheap rubber wave power generator over a ship hitting a expensive steel wave power generator any day.
    4)Watt produced per area/volume of your product does not matter as much as cost per Watt produced, their for if printable solar panels are cheap enough per average/annual watt/h produced it will be worth it, According to nanosolar they claim they can get the price per watt down to the same as coal!

    It unfortunate you got bannish, in general you were the kind of poster this forum needs.
     
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  7. Echo3Romeo One man wolfpack Registered Senior Member

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    Yeah. That's bullshit.
     
  8. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    10,296
    Ok, I've been generous and have given you a bit over TWO days - yet I still see no proof from you that houses in Oz can produce enough power to run their homes for 24 hours and still produce a surplus beyond that.

    Ready to submit a retraction of your claim?
     
  9. Echo3Romeo One man wolfpack Registered Senior Member

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    1,196
    Also curious how "tidal power alone can power our planet". Numbers always tell the truth. Sometimes their absence alludes to it.
     
  10. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Well I have not really seen many of his posts, if he did something really bad I didn't see it (or look for it) so please tell me what happend (I want to see the baning for the lulz).

    Read-Only,

    I'll take that challange, but what are the limitations, roof space?
     
  11. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    10,296
    Just ordinary-sized homes, which is what he was alluding to. No McMansions - but that wouldn't matter much because their energy needs would also be much higher than average.

    So go to it.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    And I'm still waiting for his proof also.
     
  12. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    How many Kwh per day and year in usage? Is it in a temperate house or tropical, what it latitude? I think you said OZ as in Australia? Give me the dimensions of the house, with that and its latitude and at least the State or region its in, I could tell you how much sun hits it roof a year, how much electricity that could make, how much a panel system would cost. How about wind? Is it completely off grid or is it pay and sell gird (no batteries)?
     
  13. Spud Emperor solanaceous common tater Registered Senior Member

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    3,899
    No, and sorry I didn't respond in my own time frame ( my contact in the industry is so busy installing systems, tendering for big contracts etc. that my sci question pales into insignificance.) The fact still remains that many Australian homes ( and noting that Australia gets an inordinate amount of sunshine; where I live in the [relatively] cold southern part gets an average Winter sunshine rate of six or seven hours per day and double that in Summer, this is already taking sunless days into consideration before your sceptical mind jumps to that conclusion.) run exclusively on solar or, as the grid connect system is designed, take from the grid in times of greater need and supply back to the grid when in surplus. The government is well on board and gives incentives ( power supplied back to the grid is credited at a higher rate) and grants for businesses and start up funds for homeowners and loans to install solar systems payable at very low intersest over a long time period.
    Anyway, from what I can gather, I think we're talking about 5 kilowatt systems or thereabouts for a standard home. Yes, at this stage it requires a lot of panels and a fair bit of money but we are trying help the planet out here.

    My comment about tidal energy being enough to supply the planet's power needs is just a statement about the enormity of the resource, not about our current ability to harness it.

    The sun has always provided more than enough power to keep this planet humming along.

    I'm not an engineer, a scientist or the saviour, I just find myself gobsmacked at the wierd dichotomy between our ability to create and invent and progress in areas such as computer technology, space exploration and miltary might yet seem so hopelessly slow and uninspired to meet the challenge of clean sustainable energy.
    The good news is, more money , brainpower and research is going in the right direction and I'm quietly optimistic that we'll make huge progress in the next decade or two.
    I honestly believe we'll look back at this time with our collective head shaking at the era of excess and flagrant disregard for the health of the planet.
    Read-only. I'll certainly find a link for you, be patient.
     
  14. Spud Emperor solanaceous common tater Registered Senior Member

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  15. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    10,296
    It would appear that you didn't pay close enough attention to the limited number of hours of useage of various electrical items.

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    Sure, during peak production times - sunny summer day, low load from the household - you can generate more than you are using and sell to the grid.

    BUT that doesn't cover the 24-hour needs, especially on a year-round basis!

    So, even with government incentives, etc., you still haven't met the test of your claim: that the solar-powered houses in Oz can meet ALL of their own electrical needs and also supply it to others, like office buildings. It just isn't possible. In "bursts and squirts", yes, but not on a full-time basis.
     
  16. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, Australia - the entire populated part of the country.

    I would guess about 5Kw per day - but that does NOT include peaks nor air conditioners in the hotter regions. I would extimate the average house to be about 1,900 sq.ft.

    I don't have the rest of the information - it's based on his claims, not mine anyway.
     
  17. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    Billy, a warning.
    If you keep on making intelligent considered points like this, you'll get yourself banned.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2008
  18. Spud Emperor solanaceous common tater Registered Senior Member

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    Read-only, I fear you're getting caught up in the semantics of the 'fine print' and missing the bigger picture but while you want to deal in semantics, I'll indulge you. Your assertion that "a roof full of p.v panels cannot provide but a fraction of said household's needs" is way off the mark and completely shit use of grammar besides.
    * It should read 'can supply only a fraction of..' or 'can provide but a fraction of..' but I digress and semantics are not my go so back to the big picture, some households are ( I know this, a good friend, an organic producer is doing it) providing surplus energy( over a full twelve month period and beyond) back to the grid and getting paid cold, hard cash to do so and many households are producing the major percentage of their usage from their very own rooftops.
    Community buildings, surf lifesaving clubs( an institution here) are providing most or all their power needs from rooftop wind-turbines and solar panels which have been completely funded by community action.

    Please, accept that clean energy is possible and instead of shit-canning any positive information, open your eyes and your heart and put your not inconsiderable brainpower to good use.
     
  19. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    18,523
    Read-Only,

    Well if you using 5kw as units, that house in australia with 176m^2 (assuming no angling for optimized production per latitude) would produce 225W per meter or 39.736Kw, assuming 15% efficiency on the panels that would be 5.96Kw, 90% efficiency on the DC-AC converter is 5.364Kw, so this house would produce on an average day in say Perth, Australia 107% of its electricity needs. Now if it was in Sydney though it would only produce 83% of its electricity needs.

    If you want me to to more calculations you'll have to pay for my time.
     
  20. Spud Emperor solanaceous common tater Registered Senior Member

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    Woot!
     
  21. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    10,296
    Actually, my grammar is fully acceptable in the U.S. and the U.K. - I've no idea what the Aussie standards are. But that's completely beside the point anyway.

    Let me make it clear that I have NO doubt that you can find isolated cases where a house is producing more power than it consumes - the same is true here. One can always find a few highly-efficient homes with good insulation, no air conditioning, that prepare only light (or even cold) meals and that perhaps only have a single occupant that is absent much of the day. Sure, those can produce a surplus of energy.

    And windmills are a no-go in this context; it's about PV power only as that's what you started off talking about.

    It's the OVERALL picture that I'm so highly doubtful of - your ENTIRE country as a whole and the production/usage on average. Which is what I took your original statements to say.

    Yes, I absolutely LOVE "green energy" production! But I still maintain that it will never, ever be enough to meet energy demands all across the globe. Only nuclear will be able to do that.

    Incidentally, I will be traveling out of state tomorrow and will be gone for a few days. So don't think I'm ignoring you - I'll catch back up when I return.
     
  22. Spud Emperor solanaceous common tater Registered Senior Member

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    3,899
    Yes, we're all on the same side.
    Have a good trip.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2008
  23. scorpius a realist Valued Senior Member

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    1,332
    it can, if done correctly,like so:

    http://www.mrsharkey.com/solar.htm

    also Id add wind generator for when the sun dont shine,
    such as these,very efficient and quiet too.

    www.windside.com
     

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