Pressure Harvesting - from ocean depths

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by Quantum Quack, Mar 8, 2020.

  1. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    nothing random about it... so no it's not...
    I suppose you think Nuclear reactors are Brownian motion devices...?

    re: How do solar panels work ? (Rhetorical)
     
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  3. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Can easily imagine "Peizo effect" panels being developed that can be lowered to ocean depth and farm potential energy just like a solar farm does. And because of the extreme pressures available the panels would have a high efficiency rating.
     
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  5. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Thermal motion of molecules causing something to move in response would be Brownian motion.

    Nuclear reactors rely on energy released when a large atomic nucleus changes into several smaller ones that are more stable and therefore have less energy. The energy released is nuclear potential energy.

    Solar panels intercept energy from light from the sun by absorbing energetic photons. The energy captured is electromagnetic energy.

    Neither of these is extracting work from thermal energy.
     
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  7. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    This is pure nonsense, worthy of river.

    You seem to be getting worse. I'd better put you back on Ignore.

    [click]
     
  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Brownian motion is random thermal motion of molecules. Look it up.
    No. Brownian motion is random thermal motion of molecules. Nuclear fission reactions proceed due to neutrons released by fission, which then initiate other fission reactions.
    Photons knock electrons free from atoms within the PV structure. Those electrons knocked past the barrier voltage of the PV structure are captured, and thus become available at the higher potential. And that has nothing to do with "pressure."
    Again, no. You cannot "harvest" energy from static pressure, because it does not inherently contain any energy. That is a first law violation. You can, of course, convert energy from one form to another, like a PV cell converting photons (one form of energy) to electrical potential (another form of energy.)
     
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  9. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    perhaps we are at cross purposes...

    "The atoms in every molecule are always vibrating, and each bond between atoms vibrates at a certain frequency, and in a certain direction," he said. ... "These are simple molecules, 23 or 24 atoms

    Perhaps I needed to be more precise in my language use?

    Hydrogen and oxygen vibrate at certain rate. The visualized intent is to capitalize on that vibration at extreme depth with the use of a Peizo type material. Creating panels of such that would be ineffective or provide minuscule results at atmospheric pressures.
    The vibration applies a pressure and release factor to drive the Peizo principle.

    Any how... just and idea... may be worth a sci fi novel or two...
     
  10. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Read the rest of the page that you copied that from.
    ===================================
    Does vibration cause heat?

    Matter is made up of atoms and molecules (groupings of atoms) and energy causes the atoms and molecules to always be in motion - either bumping into each other or vibrating back and forth. The motion of atoms and molecules creates a form of energy called heat or thermal energy which is present in all matter.

    Do electrons move faster when heated?

    We keep adding heat, it translates faster and faster. There is more kinetic energy, so the temperature is higher.
    ====================================

    Random motion of molecules = heat. In a fluid, that results in Brownian motion.
    Well, no. They have resonant frequencies. When excited, they tend to vibrate at those frequencies.
    Again that violates the second law of thermodynamics and so will not work.
     
  11. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    uhm lets try a different tact...

    Piezoelectricity is the electric charge that accumulates in certain solid materials (such as crystals, certain ceramics, and biological matter such as bone, DNA and various proteins)[1] in response to applied mechanical stress. The word piezoelectricity means electricity resulting from pressure and latent heat.

    Do you see any way to capitalize on the latent water pressure of the ocean floor that may generate a Piezoelectrical effect?
     
  12. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    18,959
    This has the same problem as the rock at the top of a hill, and so many other ideas based on a flawed understanding of thermodynamics.

    1] You don't get any energy out that you don't first put in.
    2] It is not a cycle. You get it once. And then the system requires an input of energy to reset it.
    3] It always requires more energy to reset it than you get out of it, since friction and heat are real-world phenomena.

    Like the rock a the top of a hill:
    - just as it takes energy to get the rock to the top of the hill, so does it take energy to get your contraption to the bottom of the sea
    - just as the rock is only good for one use (until you "recharge" it with energy), so is your piezo contraption only good for one squeeze, then you must release the pressure again to get a second use.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,640

    Yes. When you bend a piezo crystal you see a potential change. You can harvest that. When you are done there is no more charge. You have to then bend it again to get more charge. In thermodynamic terms, you do work on the crystal to get energy out. No work = no energy. And constant pressure is not work.
    No. You cannot convert static pressure to energy. Period.
     
  14. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Do you dispute the following reagrding the original idea I put forward
    if so in what way?
    the "atomic" vibration alone would provide the "bending" in both direction as you call it.
    Assume we develop a specially designed Peizo crystal from quartz that reacts to latent atomic vibration, especially enhanced at depth.
    As a scientifically minded person I would love to do voltage tests on an appropriate P crystal at a variety of depths and most interested in any variation from surface to 5000psi+

    No laws would be violated...
     
  15. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    no of course it isn't however if that pressure were vibrating what then?
     
  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Absolutely. You can not harvest the potential energy from the ocean depths any of the ways you described.

    Now, let's say the Earth was hollow and you drilled a hole through the bottom of the ocean into the hollow space. You could then harvest the CHANGE in potential energy as the water flowed from a higher potential to a lower potential - at least until you drained the oceans. Then the energy harvesting would stop.

    Pressure itself has potential energy. It can do work - but only by flowing to a location of lower pressure. By itself it has no energy.
    Sure, do all the tests you like.
     
  17. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Then you would not see any net energy. Again, second law of thermo.
     
  18. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    What you describe is a passive device (containing your crystals), with no potential energy of its own, that spontaneously cools the oceans*.

    *because that's what would happen. To trigger a vibration of your crystals, the atoms would have to give up their kinetic energy - i.e. they would be cooled below the ambient temperature of the ocean. And you're suggesting this would happen spontaneously. Essentially, you've invented a heat pump that requires no energy input, yet can transport an arbitrary amount of heat around.

    In other words: magic.

    Yes. The laws of thermodynamics would be violated.

    This is no different from the Brownian Ratchet , which cannot work.


    Look, don't you think it behooves you to learn just a little relevant physics? I mean, this stuff is mere High School science, and you don't know it. Why are we doing your homework for you?
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
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  19. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    nothing like a Brownian Ratchet...lol
    so you are saying dropping a metal bar into the ocean is somehow going to conflict with th elaws of thermodynamics? eh?
    lol

    The water atoms are vibrating all the time whether capitalized on or not., and besides so what if the oceans cool a minuscule amount... we certainly could use some cooling about now.. (climate change)
    You are still fixated on perpetual motion and energy devices which is not what is being discussed here.
    The Peizo crystal may very well cause the water to cool...which is expected according to the laws of thermodynamics...if it does indeed cool the water and electricity is the trade off then that's exactly what we want from the crystal.

    The use of a high pressure environment may provide electricity in usable amounts.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Exactly like a Brownian ratchet. If you don't see any similarities, then you don't understand your own proposal.
    Not at all.
    Those two statements conflict.
     
  21. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    It's curious that we have now had two proposals for a Brownian Ratchet in the space of a few weeks. There was an electrical one, involving a graphene sheet: http://www.sciforums.com/threads/rippling-graphene-harvests-thermal-energy.163683/. That is actually a serious piece of research that I have not quite got to the bottom of.

    And now this silly idea of QQ's.

    Until Q-reeus drew my attention to it, I had never heard of the Brownian Ratchet.

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  22. Ethernos D Grace Registered Senior Member

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    how does ocean keep moving, how does earth keep moving,how does universe keep moving? if we say energy remains same in the universe what it is saying is that it is a machine with 100% efficiency.if we mastered quantum energy and transformed kinetic energy into potential energy then we can get more than we invested as time progressess. eg, if we keep transforming hydropower into battery over time law of thermodynamics won't be lost. for moving from a to b we are taking and returning energy to universe just our position is changing and energy is transforming again and again.so over time we can harness entropy since it increase over time and when we use that entropy as energy. idk if it is possible.if it is it be like harnessing time.
     
  23. Ethernos D Grace Registered Senior Member

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