Problems with Communism?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Spectrum, Dec 3, 2005.

  1. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Well, you don't have to call it a "prison" ...it would be just another form of society that needs laws and rules and some form of enforcement of those laws and rules. And the minute you have those laws and rules, it becomes the same/similar as all other societies that have ever existed.

    Whenever people think or consider any form of "utopia", they always fail to take into account people who might not be just like themselves! Or worse, they fail to take into account the reality of human nature and human weakness and human greed and human selfishness ...which are the things that make us all human!

    Baron Max
     
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  3. Barkhorn1x Registered Senior Member

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    I just read through the last 2 pages or so.

    Basically, I have 3 issues w/ communism - which IS an economic AND political system [as defined by Marx & Engels] - where the workers own the means of production.

    Here are the issues:
    - How exactly does the system transform from, "each according to his work" to, "each according to his needs."?
    - How does the state, "wither away"?
    - Is anyone else troubled by the central act of bringing the system into being, namely the liquidation of the Bourgeoisie? Sure, they're exploiters and all but it seems odd to found this "just" system on what is basically a premeditated atrocity.

    Would any actual communists care to respond?

    Barkhorn.
     
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  5. Facial Valued Senior Member

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    Basically, the system needs a non-hostile response from capitalism (which hasn't happened) and a shift in perception for a majority of the population to realize the material conditions of society. This might happen once the gradual transition to a euro-socialist system is realized, but the political status quo in America leads me to doubt its immediate implementation.

    The state withers away in one of two ways compatible with what I have seen as human nature thus far - 1. Electronic replacement of governmental functions to regulate large-scale human needs 2. The reduction of the state as a source of authority to one of voluntary representation.

    The premeditated atrocities have come as a result of serious mistakes in the implementation of communism. The main mistake was going too fast.

    Most communists have good intentions and good optimism. Lenin realized he was going too fast from the rural protest, so he set up the NEP, but then came Stalin. Mao also had good intentions in the early 1950s, but his optimism was soured after the Hundred Flowers campaign, and thereafter never realized he was going too fast and resulted in the deaths of millions.
    Pol Pot and Kim Sung Il never understood communism.
     
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  7. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

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    ummm.... http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=51045

    also..


    you do know i redefined communism to solve for these things...

    and why does the state need to whither away...? i know.. i know...
    but im not telling you that... marx and mao maybe... but not me.

    we can trust our leaders... be them communist or capatilists...

    all we need do, is ask them to... do one simple thing...

    TAKE A VOW OF RELATIVE POVERTY FOR LIFE.

    that means lower middle class is as high as you can ever go...
    you will as such be maintained or assisted in maintaining that basic level..

    only in this way can we trust our officials with all our money... and lives.


    'cause if they fuck up... they dont get to hide away with riches..
    they arent allowed to ever have any.... ever.
    -MT
     
  8. extrasense Registered Senior Member

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    551
    You do not understand, that communism is a dream of an idiot. It CAN NOT be implemented in a reasonable way. ANY implementation of it is and can only be a disaster.

    e

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  9. Barkhorn1x Registered Senior Member

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    I figured I would get the following types of responses:

    - Gibberish:
    - Feeble attempts to “rework” the model:
    - Apologetics:
    …and I was not disappointed.


    The brainwashed Utopian can never admit that a perfect society absolutely presupposes perfect people – and this world has precious few of those – if any.


    “From each according to his needs?” OK, what does one do about the lazy, the criminal, those that don’t fit in? They will still “need”, but they will refuse to contribute. How does the communist model cope with these people? Short answer = it cannot, as it totally misreads human nature and assumes some sort of super altruism expressed by everyone, always. Sure.

    “The state will wither away?” OK, what does one do about entrenched bureaucracies that know better than everyone else? How does the communist model cope with dictators? Short answer = it CREATES them as – again – it totally misreads human nature. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    “Liquidation of the bourgeoisie and the establishment of a ‘just’ society.” I want to stress this point as it goes to the core flaw of the communist model. A “new” society based on a premeditated atrocity cannot lay claim to any moral high ground. Further, precedents, once set, tend to perpetuate. First it is the capitalist bloodsuckers that are liquidated, then those who cling to their pitiful patch of land, then intellectuals who would corrupt the revolution, then those who don’t evince enough revolutionary fervor. It never ends, as – again – you cannot build a Utopia with inferior human material.

    You people who actually believe this nonsense scare me as much as any Islamist - as you share so much in common – especially the infallible righteousness of your belief system.

    Extrasense is right and you people really should get out more.

    Barkhorn.
     
  10. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

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    2,650
    Bark... your still stuck on having one or the other...

    why cant we just have both...?

    -MT
     
  11. extrasense Registered Senior Member

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    YOU CAN NOT HAVE COMMUNISM, period
     
  12. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

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    ahhh..... but we can have communes.... same thing.. just smaller scale.
    and so.. there is no need for conflict.

    -MT
     
  13. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Wherever there are more than a few humans, there will be conflict. It's unavoidable, it's in our nature to be selfish and greedy and individualistic. And as such, the conflicts arise over the simplest, most foolish issues.

    Mosheh, if you want to change things, you first have to face the realities of the human animal ...you can't just dream up a loving, compassionate, caring, helpful human to show how things COULD be. Anyone can dream pretty dreams, but making realities work with the dreams or to change human nature is a bit more difficult.

    Baron Max
     
  14. extrasense Registered Senior Member

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    551
    This is actually an attempt to cheat, and so make things better for the crooked propagandist - not for those who suffer.
    Even Christ does not ask to love your neighbour more than yourself, just as much, as yourself.

    The communists are crooks and parasites, nothing less nothing more.

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  15. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

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    Baron.... you are mislead... and i fear for your immortal self.


    Extra... only the communists in charge have been so...
    they have allowed high standards of livings for themselves...

    but the ideal socialist man in the ranks.... he is not a criminal, nor your enemy.

    there is no conflict..... soon you will understand.

    -MT
     
  16. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

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    Communist radicals are a pain in the neck!
     
  17. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

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    Communism is an ideology, and any ideology becomes oppressive when it is applied forcefully on the others. The problem with ideologies is that they are often far removed from the reality.
     
  18. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    tell that to the capitalists.
     
  19. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

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    Them too!

    Buddha (the real one!) suggested to take the middle path.

    .....without worrying too much about the ideologies and isms or getting bound to them as our identities, we should take what is helpful and positive, and reject the rest.
     
  20. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

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    2,650
    ahhh... the middle path....

    both capatilist and communist... but not socialist.

    -MT
     
  21. Facial Valued Senior Member

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    Barkhorn, how do you define a perfect person???

    And how do you define human nature? This is the core of the argument here.
     
  22. Facial Valued Senior Member

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    One should take note that capitalism itself is an ideology. A businessman sells a product under the consent of the consumer, and they both benefit off the transaction. A win-win situation, right?

    But how does this devolve into class divisions, exploitation, corporate abuse, U.S. imperialism, and lobbyists who shift the perspectives of science and reality? In other words, capitalism is a system that is lovely on the outside and quite rotten on the inside. That is not to imply that communism is the opposite, since it has never been implemented.
     
  23. extrasense Registered Senior Member

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    The dream of the village idiot Marx could not ever and will not ever be implemented.
    It is like quantum computing, a way to cheat you out of your pants.

    e

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    Last edited: Jan 8, 2006

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