prove to me that god is real

Yeah, and the Devil thought that God's Words were the best weapon too. That's an old concept...certainly not very original. Satan used God's words against His people as far back as the Garden of Eden. He also used God's words in Christ's temptations.

And what website did you have to search to get all these? It is almost a certainty that you would not have found these on your own. Even more obvious when you are using some of the same references which I had already responded to just a few posts prior.

First off, whose definition of "soon" are you referring to when saying that so many of these verses are not true? And how many times have I mentioned that God is not limited by Time? Outside of Time, "a thousand years is as a single day, and a day is as a thousand years." We do not know when. We are only to watch and be ready.

Second, the people of God's Kingdom are His Church. And they came to Power with the rush of the Holy Spirit, which Christ said He would send to them after His ascension. This was on the Day of Pentecost.

Third, all of the end of the world prophesies have obviously not happened yet. That does not mean that they are true. It just means that Time is not yet complete.

Fourth, when Christ spoke to the High Priest, He was not saying "in a few days". He was saying the same as:

Revelation 1:7 - Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

He was also saying:

Revelation 5:13 - And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Oh, yeah...and the reference to Hebrews 1:2 has nothing at all to do with the end times, nor any prophesy. Read the rest of it. It said that in older times, God spoke to them through the prophets; now He chose to speak to them through His Son. That one, I will say was out of context. Anyone who would take the time to read it, in relation to what has just taken place, can see that.

 

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M*W: I just wanted to comment on the "time frame" of "God's Kingdom arriving within a very short period." If one interprets some of the dialog written for the character of Jesus, the Son of Man, by whoever actually wrote the script, I believe this is clearly a reference to the cosmology of the bible. The "Son of Man" is a reference to the "Sun." It could be written as "Sun of Man" or "Solomon," and probably was taken literally as the sun at the time it was written. Therefore, the "Kingdom of God," or the zodiac is not of THIS world. It's in the literal heavens.

Matthew 16:28: "...there shall be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
"Death" in this instance is interpreted as "nighttime" or when the sun goes down behind the Earth and "dies" as the ancients believed. In their imaginations, the "Sun of Man" has left them in the evil darkness of night. Literally interpreted by cosmotheology, men will be awake at night in the darkness, but they will not die on account of the darkness, and they will witness the sun come up in the morning. That's all it means! The Sun was the creator of the universe, so they worshipped the sun from the beginning of time. The sun fed them through their crops, so they prayed to the sun to give them good crops, and religion took off from there. The rising sun was what has been interpreted incorrectly for millenia as the rapture. In their minds, the rapture came every morning at daybreak.

In Matthew 24:34, Jesus is recorded as saying: "...This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Again, the dying and rising son became a prophecy which was literally fulfilled daily. The reference to "generation" could have a number of different meanings. I think it refers in general to the people alive at the time, and is not what we consider a generation to be today. In cosmotheology terms, a generation could mean the annual rotation around the sun, so that would mean a yearly generation. It could also mean an "age" as in the Age of Aquarias. The sun is the "Alpha and Omega." It's been there since the beginning of time, and it will be there long after we're gone. Jesus was referred to the Alpha and Omega. The sun is in the center (or heliocentral) to the zodiac. During the "death of the sun" each night, early man created a god, more specifically an angel (or a literal star) to rule the night. He was called the "Morningstar," or "Lucifer," the "light-bringer" to the evil darkness. "Lucifer" coincidentally is a star in the Constellation Serpens, the Serpent of the Garden (the zodiac).

Regardless of which interpretation is used, the interpretation by the early church fathers was based on lies skewed to justify their own evil agenda. Now don't get me started on "the lake of fire!"

 

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However the interpretation of the sun being in the "middle" is quite wrong in other times of history. The earth was thought to be the middle of the universe while the sun went around the earth.

The Scriptural Basis for a Geocentric Cosmology

*We go back to the ancient world when it was believed that earth was enclosed by a metallic dome called the firmament. Because of sky’s blue color, they believed the firmament shrouded them from the water above.

6And God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
7And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. (Gen. 1:6-7)

They believed that earth was stationary and that the stars moved in a circular fashion around earth. Biblical Astrology

 

See how well the delusional can make shit up for their non-sequirtus bs!.

* Summary

This event is reminiscent of the story of Job when God and Satan conspired to test Job’s fidelity.

The spirit of God led Jesus up into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. First, he asked Jesus to prove he was the son of God by turning stones into bread. Second, he took Jesus to the pinnacle of the temple in the holy city and asked him to prove his divinity by leaping off. Third, he took Jesus to the top of the highest mountain and offered him all the kingdoms of the world, if he would worship him, the devil. Jesus refused all three of the devil’s tempting offers.

Interpretation

In essence, he was offered economic power as symbolized by the bread; psychological power as symbolized by immortality; and political power as symbolized by the kingdoms. Though it appears as if Jesus was humbly refusing power, he accepted God’s offer, as other passages attest. Or if he was already a god, as Christians believe, then he already had those powers.

Christ's Temptation

Truly you have two choices:

Either jesus was not god, so he could be tempted!

Or jesus is tempting himself with is formidable ally/enemy the devil?

Which is is it?

 

Yes, and your previous posts stated that the early Hebrews received this concept from Egypt. This was where Sun Worship originated. Yet you failed to take notice that the Hebrews monotheism was established in a time before the Israelites ever went to Egypt. On top of that, you have mentioned that this was where they would have gotten the idea for a monotheistic religion. Yet that also cannot be, since the Egyptians' was a polytheistic religion, believing in Ra, Horus, Isis, Anubis, and on top of this, the Pharoah himself being a deity. Your concept of the the Hebrew faith stemming from Egyptian Sun-worship cannot stand.

 

What we have is a completely God "mind" perfectly integrated with a completely human person. The integration is so complete that Christ was able to fully experience pain (scourging), fear and anxiety (garden prayer before Crucifixion), rejection (more times than can be counted), and even temptation (in this case).

The temptation was not only these three things, but to use the power He knew He had for His own personal gain. Yet He knew that God's Will was that this power should be used in compassion for other people, and to bring them to a saving knowledge of God.

 

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M*W: Sorry, pal, you're stepping into territory that I've intensely researched. The "early Hebrews" were Egyptian, from the tribe of "Ibiru" rightfully living in their own land. Yes, sun worship did originate in Egypt, and the Ibiru worshipped the sun just like the pharaohs and the commoners. The Ibiru were not enslaved in Egypt. That is not historically proven. The "Israelites" did not "go" to Egypt. They were from there. They only became "Israelites" when they migrated there. An "Israelite" is a worshipper of the Goddess Isis (Is), a sun worshipper (Ra) who also worships the Ibiru sun god (El). All religion is man-made and originated in sun worship. Read some research on the subject by Ahmed Osman.

 

You go girl!

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Try again...The Ishmaelites were of Egyptian origin because Ishmael's mother, Hagar, was from Egypt. However, Ishmael AND Isaac's father Abraham was from Mesopotamia, closer to Persia, on the far side of the Arabian penninsula from Egypt.

Isaac's son, Jacob, was later named Israel. I've already given historical documentation of his son being in Egypt, and a person of importance there. He had his family, the decendants of Israel, brought there, where they grew in numbers.

So if you date back a bit further, you might just see that the Israelites did not originate from Egypt, and their faith in Jehovah pre-dated their arrival.

 

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M*W: Abraham was of Egyptian origin. Don't you remember the story of Sarah (meaning "princess") being the daughter of Pharaoh as well as Abraham's half-sister? Well, here's another one of your bubbles I'm going to burst: When Abraham and Sarah RETURNED to Egypt after they moved to Canaan, Abraham offered his "sister" Sarah to the Pharaoh. That's when she conceived Isaac! Isaac was Abraham's step-son not his natural child. Isaac was also the son and brother of Sarah. Close family ties, I would say.

The Hebrews were Egyptians and not a separate bloodline.

Hagar was of the tribe of Ibiru. She traveled with Sarah and Abraham from Egypt to Canaan. Ishmael is the true son of Abraham. Isaac is not. You can state whatever you want to state, but the fact remains what you have learned about this particular history, well, face it, you have been lied to!

Oh, and another thing, Abraham embraced pantheism and not monotheism. Please do some reading before you post. You don't know what you are talking about.

 

Sorry...I still do not agree.

Genesis 12:11-13 - And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon: Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive. Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.

Sarai (Sarah) was Abram's wife

Genesis 12:19 - (Pharaoh speaking) Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way. (emphasis mine)

There was no relationship between Pharoah and Sarai. Earlier in Ch 12, along with later references show that they were in Egypt for less than a year. Abram was 75 when they left Haran, farther north.

Genesis 20:12 - And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.

Sarai was not the daughter of Pharaoh of Egypt, but of Terah, Abram's father.

Genesis 16:3 - And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.

Abraham's first-born was 10 years + after leaving Egypt.

Genesis 16:16 - And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram.

Genesis 17:1 - And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Other passages show that his father, Terah, worshipped pagan gods, yet Abram only mentions this One, the Almighty God; later known as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

Genesis 17:21 - But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time next year.

Isaac was not born to Abraham until near 25 years after they left Egypt. Abraham was 100 years old, and Sarah was 90. As such, Isaac could not be the son of Pharoah.

I have been lied to????? I believe that to be your opinion. I also believe your opinion to be incorrect.

 

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M*W: I can see that your mind is closed to scholarship. So be it. Just continue to stick your head in the sand and blindly follow your lying bible. You're a fool.

 

If I am a fool, then I will continue to be a fool for God. And it will be an honor to be so.

You claim that my Bible is lying. Yet aside from the statements you make, I have not yet found history able to refute it. Every arguement against has been so full of holes, no legitimate grounds were found to continue considering them.

My faith may have been blind, initially, but it has never been shown to be misplaced.

 

Hate to state the obvious, but 6 day creation? Adam and Eve, world wide flood covering all of land, within 40 days? Young Earth? etc.

 

Don't he remind you of SouthStar? (Defender of the Faith)

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It's obvious that he has not study the bible as much as SouthStar, otherwise we would have JME growing agnostic, atheist, or humanist upon revelation that what he believes is utterly crap!

Yes buddy do study the bible, really get into it, travel to Egipt, Rome, see first hand and experience the deceit of your religion.

Godless

 

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M*W: There is honor among thieves and fools, but there is no god out there for you to be a fool for. You are a fool of your own ignorance.

Yes, I claim your bible is lying, and so do most of the members of this forum, which begs the question, then, why are you here? Why would a christian come into an predominantly atheistic forum? What is your purpose for coming here?

Of course you haven't found history to refute my arguments. You refuse to look for the truth, so you'll never find it. So, what do you hope to gain by being one of the few christians on a scientific forum, yet cannot offer anything of science or history to prove your cause.

You're like a fish out of water. You have nothing to offer the forum.

 

Why would an atheist make any comment concerning God. It would seem that one who does not believe in God would have nothing to say on the subject.

You misread my statement. My statement was that "I have not yet found history able to refute it." It, being The Bible.

A question was asked. I am simply trying to provide an answer. And in all the arguements against Christianity and the Hebrew God, I still have not heard any decisive evidence to disprove anything from God's Word.

Besides, it would appear that the initial question had nothing to do with "science" other than seeking proof.

How many things from history to archaeology have been posted, which has obviously been ignored, which verifies Biblical statements? How many cultures, throughout the world, KennyJC, have stories about a worldwide flood? (the answer to that one is around 240).
I have check your "evidence" to disprove the Bible, Godless, while simultaneously studying the Bible, and found all of your website references to be filled with so many holes, it really isn't worth the time to read, although I have. Notes have been made concerning those sites, too numerous to bother with cramping my wrists typing them all, listing the holes in the reasoning of those sites.

All you have done is strengthen my faith in the Hebrew/Christian God.

Except, perhaps, a voice of reason, that will not bow, or be humbled by your criticism, insults, etc.

Romans 1:16,17 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

And should the last statement be questioned "Just where is it written?"

Habakkuk 2:4 - Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Galatian 3:11 - But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Hebrews 10:38 - Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Take your pick.

 

Not sure if anyone answered you... but my God is very real to me, although, paradoxically, I can empathise with atheists and other ‘non-believers’.

But proof? Awareness of the divine is totally subjective, in my opinion, even though some ‘spiritual’ experiences are the same, no matter what the faith - or activity (athletes, for example, can experience a mystical ‘high’).

I have never really understood why some (like me) are hardwired to believe and to sense a divine connection, no matter what. It means I do not feel obliged to prove anything. There is a sense of knowing - not very scientific I grant - but most true believers do not feel the need to shout it from the rooftops.

That does not mean the spiritual journey is any easier. If anything, it is much more challenging. And by spiritual journey, that also means having the courage to follow a faith - and change it when it no longer serves one’s spiritual needs.

I also have never really understood what atheists actually *do* believe in. Gaia is I suppose one option. Maybe they just want to find some logical reason to believe. I don’t think it works that way though. That would be thinking from a human perspective when divine awareness stems from recognising the divine within ourselves.

So, the nearest I can get to providing ‘proof’, is a desire to share - but not preach. (Not sure if I have managed that!)

It feels like a real live extrasensory relationship; even a short moment of mental stillness and inner silence will sort out some issue or give me an idea or a strength that I need. The key is *wanting* to ‘tune in and up’.

Maybe the question of God is one of definition.

Take away the anthropomorphic elements of faith and what you get is a Creator with attributes and aspects as unlimited and infinite as our imaginations and beyond.

Religious affiliations are simply ways of personalising the divine connection with others. Although I no longer follow any formal faiths, I think they have a purpose in guiding minds ‘upwards and inwards’. However, problems arise when the dogma or practice of the faith becomes more important than the divine relationship.

I hope this makes sense. The guys changing the boiler have tipped the house upside down and I cannot focus properly - or make myself a drink.

 

The "high" that athletes experience, as with all other "highs" is due to a chemical imbalance compared to the resting norm.

Faith / Religion / Spirituality etc can have benefits to those that need them (comfort, perspective etc) - but the beliefs associated with those things are, on the whole, irrational.

Nothing. I have no need to "believe" where there is no evidence.

Depends on what you mean by Gaia. From what I understand it is a theory that I am not sure can be tested - and so is not scientific.

It also depends on what you classify as an atheist... I mean I am an atheist, because I choose not to believe in anything where there is no evidence, and that includes God. Some atheists are happy to have belief in things - and choose to believe that God does not exist. So these latter atheists might pick on Gaia to believe in - I just don't know.

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