Psychology: Burkas give me the creeps.

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by sculptor, Feb 5, 2017.

  1. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    There is absolutely no consensus about the burqa among Muslim-majority nations, or even among diverse Muslim communities. For example, in Pakistan, the world's sixth largest country, the majority of women do NOT wear the burqa. Moreover, women in the handful of provinces, where it is customary, almost always TAKE IT OFF before traveling into the other provinces.

    Islamic traditions vary from one country to another, just as Christian traditions do--and as illustrated above, from one community to another.
     
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  3. Confused2 Registered Senior Member

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    Having the occasional Burqa Day when everyone wears a burqa might take the edge off it. Might turn out to be addictive.
     
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  5. Bells Staff Member

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    I am sure there are other options that are not called the burqa. But that is what they opt to wear.

    You do realise you make very little sense, yes?

    Firstly, the colours vary according to regions, countries and cultures. Algerian women usually wear a white burqa, for example and Afghanistan it is usually made of a very lightweight blue silk type cloth.

    Do I agree with it? No because it is not really my thing.. Although on some days, I can see why it would be desirable to wear it. But again, it is not my culture or my body. If women opt to wear it, then that is entirely their prerogative and their choice. My issue with it is when wearing it is enforced by law, resulting in beatings if it is not worn.

    And also, the woman wearing it is still a person. Some cultures want to remove the notion of the woman being a sexual being, or sexually attractive, hence forcing them to wear it. But she is still a human being. And I think when we stop seeing them as human beings is where and how we go backwards as a people and it really does not help to start referring to women who wear them as "it".
     
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  7. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Some day when you have an hour to kill, read the Wikipedia article on the burqa. You'll be just as confused as you were when you started.

    While the Quran contains many passages about a woman's modesty, they are not consistent, and most important of all, there's nothing that even comes close to the level of God/Allah/Yahweh himself saying, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" or "Keep the Sabbath Day Holy." In other words, all of the "rules" about the burqa and the various other aspects of a woman's appearance were devised by mortals.

    Customs vary wildly from one Muslim country to another, and even from one region to another within one Muslim country. Many communities have no objection to women tossing away their own community's modesty standards in order to honor the customs of another Muslim community when they travel, or even when they invite guests from other communities into their own homes.
    Here in the USA, especially in the cities, we are extremely hostile to the burqa. As I noted earlier, many of our shops and stores photograph customers when they enter, in order to identify and deter shoplifters. A person of either gender wearing a mask that conceals his face will not be allowed to enter.

    If you come down the mountain after a day of skiing, intending to enter any of the shops or restaurants at the bottom that cater to tired skiers, you will have to remove your full-face ski mask before they'll let you in.

    The one milieu in which we haven't got rules yet is Halloween parties. Much of the fun of the holiday is simply trying to guess who everyone is under their full-body costume.
     
  8. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    OK you are sure there are other options

    But to me it appears very strange all appear to pick only the burqa

    Can you name any of these other options you are sure exist?

    How so?

    You don't think that bisexual Catholic priest exist and I don't care how they dress?

    That's good you have a choice

    Again good if it is their choice

    But if the law states for security reasons you cannot wear such items end of story

    I ride a motorcycle

    I have no choice but to wear a helmet for safety reasons but cannot wear it at times for security reasons

    If I want to go into a bank I have to wear it going for safety

    Take it off for security

    Put it back on to go home for safety

    I guess I do have the option of wearing it at home and even going to bed and leaving it on

    Not practical but still a choice option

    And I understand that does happen in some countries

    Do you think, given a choice to live in countries where they have a choice, women would wear the burqa?

    I think few would

    Hence the beatings which I am pleased you are against

    Agree

    But, here's the big BUT, for security reasons we need to ensure the identity of the person and indeed if the person is female, male or unlikely two kids one on the others shoulders
     
  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    5,356
    Are you talking about their robes? That is their uniform. It is not what they wear in public, so I don't see what it has to do with the topic.
    What does their sexual orientation have to do with the price of tea in China?
     
  10. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    5,356
    Security issues are few and far between and under controlled circumtances. Separate issue.

    As you point out quite nicely, you can obscure your identity with a motorcycle as much as you want. The only issue comes when someone (who is authorized to do so) needs to identify you.

    Out in public, we have no right to demand to know a person's gender or pretty much anything else about them. They have their right to their privacy.
     
  11. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    2,109
    Nooooo I am not talking about their robes

    I could have put any feature onto any type of person

    I chose the one that I did as an illustration of my dis interest in what anybody wears

    I could have posted a 10 metre Mongolian or any of a gazillion possibilities

    I just picked that particular one

    I beg to differ

    In times we live in now, while I would not put it as strong as a right to demand to know a person's gender I would put it as being an expectation from all and by all to conduct themselves in a manner which can not be construed as disturbing

    And like it or not manner includes clothing

    Any person of any, even of unknown gender, dressed in a manner considered disturbing would be looked at in public well disturbing

    If I was to wear my full motorcycle leathers complete with helmet walking around the supermarket I am sure I would be considered as disturbing and come under suspicion

    And as a sideline regarding gender as I understand the situation in parts of America you have a choice (yes a choice) of which gender you wish to be identified with

    The choices are about 50

    Not sure if none of the 50 odd don't fit your idea of your gender you can add your gender to the list

    Even if a person was standing before you naked I'm sure anyone would be hard put to pick from a list of about 50 that person's gender

    Agreed

    When in private situations

    In public situations it is another ball game
     
  12. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    No. You do not have the right to not be disturbed.

    The law is the guide as to when being disturbed crosses an actionable line, but so far, we don't have laws about liking the clothing of strangers.

    Tough.

    Nonetheless, it is your right. The right of any free citizen in a free country.

    You only think otherwise because it is currently working for you.

    Has it not occurred to you that this could easily be flipped on its head? What if someone took umbrage with your girlfriend having bare arms and legs? Must she cover up simply because some stranger thinks your gf's outfit is disturbing?**



    No. You do not have the right to impose your comfort on people minding their own business in public.

    You are sliding down a slippery slope. It leads to citizens being required to carry their "documents" at all times to prove who you are in case anyone decides to stop you on the street.

    And we all know how that worked out in the past.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2017
  13. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    5,356
    ** There's two issues here, we should be careful to keep clear.
    One is the issue of identity versus security.
    The other is the issue of personal comfort level in public.

    It behooves each of us not to conflate the two. Michael's Post 28 is simply about personal comfort level.
     
  14. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    2,109
    I agree the law is used as a guide

    "In common law legal systems, a precedent or authority is a legal case that establishes a principle or rule. This principle or rule is then used by the court or other judicial bodies use when deciding later cases with similar issues or facts."
    Legal precedent - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Reasonable Person. A phrase frequently used in tort and Criminal Law to denote a hypothetical person in society who exercises average care, skill, and judgment in conduct and who serves as a comparative standard for determining liability.
    Reasonable person standard legal definition of Reasonable person ...

    We can concoct any number of situations and I agree

    I don't have the right to not be disturbed and

    Tough and

    What if someone took umbrage with your girlfriend having bare arms and legs? Must she cover up simply because some stranger thinks your gf's outfit is disturbing?**

    Is not the passage above the law which is trying to be imposed?

    The imposition of such a law I find disturbing

    we don't have laws about liking the clothing of strangers


    So we agree we don't want such laws and will stick with Common Laws of Precedent

    And the idea of the Common Man

    Sorry my post come from a mobile phone which unfortunately doesn't have numbered post so I don't know which of my post is numbered 28 sorry

    I'm to lazy to hunt for my post by actually counting the post so I am happy to let your post above slide unless you feel it is important
     
  15. Bells Staff Member

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    21,661
    The burqa is what it is commonly known as, but visit other countries and they are often called something else and look different, but they still serve the same purpose. The haïk being one such garment.

    It's not that they all pick it. It is simply what it is commonly known as, but it comes in many different forms in different parts of the world. In other words, no, they do not all pick the burqa.

    I don't care that they exist at all, nor do I care what they wear.

    Which is the point I was trying to make.

    If women choose to wear it, more power to them and they should have the choice. I know one woman who opted to wear it, despite her husband's disapproval that she chose to wear it, but it was her choice and he had to respect her choice. After a few years, she chose not to wear it anymore. Their daughter wants no part of any of it and wears bikinis on the beach and sunbathes topless when she can. Which is also her choice.

    Certainly, not every woman is free to make that choice and that is the real issue. But if a woman chooses to wear it, then that is her choice and she should be respected for her choice. Which causes some consternation in the West primarily, because many believe that the women who deliberately choose to wear it are somehow forced into it. And these women are often targeted for exercising their personal choice in what they wear. And that is wrong.

    Laws that attempt to dictate what women wear are ridiculous and they are just as restrictive as laws that force or demand women wear them.

    You are comparing wearing a motorcycle helmet with a full body covering robe?

    Are you suggesting that women be forced to get undressed for "security reasons"?

    Because the burqa allows a woman to even be completely naked underneath. Do you think it would be appropriate for the law to demand that women strip to enter a bank for security reasons? Because you removing a motorcycle helmet is the same as a woman being forced to completely remove her hijab, which is essentially often her dress...?

    The woman I mentioned above lives on a small island, with a small Muslim population who dress in a way that would be appropriate for a small tropical holiday island. No one wore it. When she converted to Islam after she married her husband (again, her choice, he was quite happy with their civil marriage ceremony, but she wanted a religious ceremony/blessing and opted to convert despite everyone telling her she actually did not need to, but she wanted to), she kind of went, well, 'full hog'. She opted for the burqa, despite it being so uncommon that she had to have it imported for her to wear.

    So yes, some women do opt to wear it when given the choice.

    And for some women, it, along with the niqab and the hijab, has become a symbol of their fight for their freedoms. Muslim feminists argue that the West's attempt to force women to not wear it is on par with the paternalistic societies that force women to wear it. In short, Muslim women are not being given a choice on either side.

    In France, for example, the actions of the State against Muslim women in banning many forms of clothing, from the burqa to niqab to headscarves to long skirts if worn by Muslims (non Muslim women can wear long skirts and headscarves without issue), has seen a resurgence in donning the garb in protest against State action against women because of their religion.

    “People had the impression that the women wearing the veil were abused by men. But in ten years I have never met a woman who was forced to wear the veil by a man,” she says.

    “People presented this cliché that Muslim women needed to be saved from men.”

    De Féo says the 2010 ban has only helped to normalise and encourage Islamophobia in France.

    “We now live in a society where people think it’s normal to insult Muslim women wearing the full veil just because they are disobeying the law,” she says, pointing to several unsavoury incidents in recent years including women being attacked and having their veils pulled off their faces.

    “The more these women are insulted, the more they feel they are not accepted in France. It’s a total rupture with society.”

    She argues the law has encouraged the kind of “communitarianism”, which France is ever desperate to avoid, because those who insist on wearing the niqab stay in the housing estates where they live.

    "The don’t leave for fear of being insulted or stopped by police," de Féo says.

    Before 2010 there were considered to be only around 2,000 Muslim women wearing the veil in France, but according to De Féo the motivation for many women who wear the veil now has altered.

    Many niqab wearers are young converts, single women and often divorced.

    “Before the ban most Muslim women wore the veil for religious reasons,” she says. “Now a lot of the women who wear the niqab, started doing so after the law was introduced. They converted to Islam and began wearing the veil because it became an identity to them.

    “For them it’s an act of resistance against the state, just like the punk or skinhead movements. That’s why they are happy to pay their €150 fines.”

    Nicolas Cadenne from France Secularism Observatory agreed.

    “Certain women who wear the veil just want to provoke. They wear it in public to cause annoyance or fear and they are not scared of the police,” he told The Local.

    One niqab-wearing woman in France confirmed that view to Le Monde newspaper.

    “It’s my way of fighting, to say no to the government, who took away my liberty,” said a woman named Leila who began wearing the veil after 2010.

    That view is backed up by the figures released from France’s interior ministry to coincide with the five year anniversary since the law was brought in.

    Since the burqa-ban came into force a total of 1,623 stops have been made by police and 1,546 fines of €150 given out, but only against 908 women.

    That’s because many of those controls have involved stopping repeat offenders. Indeed one woman has been fined 33 times and five women have been fined more than 14 times each.

    And the number of fines being handed out is on the rise, with 234 being issued in 2011 compared to 397 in 2014.

    So you are wrong. Many do opt to wear it, even when not required to and banning these garments is absolutely ridiculous.

    Police in France have used that as an excuse too.. And forced women to strip in public for "security" reasons..

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    I should not need to tell you that this is not acceptable..
     
  16. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I don't care what anyone wears but I think it is not polite to hide your face.
    I suppose we hide most of our body so does a little bit more cause a problem.
    I have not talked to anyone with their face covered so I don't know how I feel really.
    I think folk get too excited however to start suggesting laws to dictate dress.
    Alex
     
  17. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    2,109
    That reminds me of Shakespeare's comment on the rose

    There ARE laws in some countries which dictate Burqas as the only dress

    Laws in Western countries dictate you cannot be nude in public BUT do not dictate type or style

    Nooooo

    Helmet = full face cover

    That security comparison

    And a method of terrorism

    Which one is going to pop into the head of the person in the street - FREEDOM / BOMB?

    ?? That sounds weird and I don't see how it could be enforced as stated

    Again want to wear / not wear I don't care

    Security is another ball game

    I'm hazy on the timing but I think this arose just after the ban came into effect

    Were the actions taken for ' general ' security'? I would go for yes

    Also it would be pointless to proscribed a law without enforcement

    Were the individuals targeted for ' security '? I would go for no

    Could it have been better handled?

    YES
     
  18. Bells Staff Member

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    21,661
    And as I have repeatedly said, laws which dictate wear the burqa are just as oppressive as laws which demand women not be allowed to wear it.

    Which has what to do with this discussion?

    I don't agree with laws regarding public nudity and decency either. The reason being that it is often taken to extremes and people are known to target women trying to breastfeed for 'decency's' sake.

    It then inevitably leads to morons arguing why a man cannot pee in public but a woman can breastfeed in public and so on and so forth.

    The full face cover that they wear is a type of robe. If you lift it, her whole body is exposed. Which is a tad different to a motorcycle helmet.

    There really is no comparison.

    For whom?

    Are you suggesting that the burqa is used to promote terrorism? Or used to commit acts of terrorism?

    Or is it the fact that burqa's are so closely tied to Muslims that you deem it a method of terrorism?

    What pops into your head when you see a Muslim woman wearing a burqa?

    That is the reality for many Muslim women in France.

    For example:

    A teenage Catholic girl who converted to Islam has been banned from attending a school in the eastern Paris suburbs because her skirt is too long.

    The headteacher of the school in Montereau-Fault-Yonne told the 16-year-old that the length of her skirt meant that it was an “ostentatious religious symbol” – something forbidden in state schools in France since 2004.

    A meeting will be held at the school with the pupil’s parents to try to resolve the dispute, following a rash of similar incidents in other French schools last year.

    Long skirts if worn as a fashion statement are allowed in French schools. Long skirts worn as sign of allegiance to Islam – or any other religion – may fall foul of the 2004 law which enforces the principle that state schools are secular.

    How is what a woman wears a security risk for you?

    The ban has been in place since 2004. The incident on the beach occurred last year.

    How is wearing a long sleeved shirt and pants and a headscarf to the beach a security risk?

    My mother, who is not a Muslim, wears long pants and long sleeved shirts, along with a scarf and hat and sunglasses to the beach because she does not like the sun. If she was in France, she would be deemed a security risk, in your opinion? Or would she only be deemed a security risk if she happened to be a Muslim?
     
  19. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    5,356
    The motorcycle helmet, like the burka, obscures a person's identity/facial recognition and, to some extent, gender.

    The salient point being anyone can choose to hide traits about themslves if they so choose. It's nobody else's business. It is in that sense they are comparable.
     
  20. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    5,356
    No. That's the kind of bigotry that cannot be tolerated.

    Once was a time when simply being black made people uncomfortable.
    What was the solution?

    To educate those people that a superficial trait does not indicate an underlying trait.

    What's what it's always been about.
     
  21. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    2,109
    You DON'T agree with laws regarding public nudity

    How enlightening that you would raise no objections to anybody walking around in public nude

    Sounds stupid to me

    But my questions would be along the lines

    does the secular school have a standard school uniform?

    what other markers indicate the students skirt is related to students religion?

    Asked before

    Answered before

    So it's a law being enforced

    Asked before

    Answered before

    My opinion has zero relevance

    The judgement rest with the duty personal there at the time considering all the information they have
     
  22. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,109
    Agree

    But the bad guys don't play by rules or care that a educated person knows ' a superficial trait does not indicate an underlying trait '

    People will make judgements on what is currently happening and its likely effects on them


     
  23. Bells Staff Member

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    21,661
    I don't particularly care, to be honest. Just as I don't look at a Muslim woman on the street and immediately think "bomb" or "security threat" as you seem to..

    No, the school does not.

    It is a religious test. Non Muslim girls wearing a long skirt for fashion reasons are not sent home. Muslim girls wearing a long skirt for modesty are deemed to be overtly showing their religion and are sent home.

    Did you not bother to read any of the links provided?

    No, you have not.

    All you have done is to argue for reasons of security and then stunningly, declared that it is a method for terrorism...

    Which frankly, is astounding. And all without explanation.

    Hence why I asked you those questions in the hope you would clarify whatever point you are trying to make.

    The law itself is discriminatory. And it denies women their rights over what they wear. To wit, a woman can show her boobs on a French beach, but if is a Muslim and wears a long sleeve shirt, long pants and a scarf on her head on the same beach, she is deemed to be offensive. Which is interesting that you are trying to argue this point, while maligning my not caring if people are naked.. Ironic, no?

    The laws are just as oppressive as laws that demand women cover up in many countries. Understand now?

    Again, you have failed to answer these questions.

    How is wearing a long sleeve shirt, long pants and a scarf at the beach a security risk?

    Your opinion as zero relevance?

    Pray tell, why are you giving us your opinion in this thread then?

    People are making those judgements based on bigotry.

    For example, a nun wearing a face veil and long gown would not be asked to strip off on a beach by French police. But a Muslim woman lying on the beach wearing a colourful long sleeved cotton shirt (I have several of those shirts specifically to wear to the beach myself!), long tights and a head scarf is deemed to be breaking the law for doing so? A young girl wearing a long skirt is breaking the law only if she is a Muslim? You don't see how this is discriminatory?

    The very notion that they could be bad guys reeks of bigotry. The same type of bigotry that sees unarmed black men in the US shot, for example, because they look like bad guys.

    The irony is that people complain about the laws that force women to wear a burqa which cite security (personal and spiritual) as a reason. That it is oppressive, denies them their rights. But apparently it is fine to arrest and fine women for wearing it under the guise of security?

    Both are equally oppressive and discriminatory.
     

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