# Quantifying gravity's mechanism

Discussion in 'Alternative Theories' started by quantum_wave, Apr 4, 2013.

1. ### originIn a democracy you deserve the leaders you elect.Valued Senior Member

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Hey, profLayman has some good points - ha-ha no, I'm just kidding...

It is too bad he is disrupting you science based discussion - ha-ha just kidding again.

This is kind of like the simutaneity discussion in that there is a train, well both threads are a train wreck at least.

3. ### eramSciengineerValued Senior Member

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haha total derailment.

But in one of ash's threads, Prof actually managed to get something right. A broken clock is correct twice a day/

5. ### quantum_waveContemplating the "as yet" unknownValued Senior Member

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BTW, not that you were going to invest a ton of time on an equation that simply extends my equation from two converging quanta to multiple converging quanta, the equation won't mean anything if the idea is nonsense.

Put that on the back burner, lol. The concept of multiple quanta is easier to describe using my non-science wild a** ball park figure for the number of quanta in an electron:

Nothing brilliant, certainly. But I submit that if there is a mechanism for gravity, and you haven't said you think the geometry and maths of GR are the physical mechanism, then it isn't going to be part of the Standard Model.

First of all, the fundamental particles of the SM would have to be composed of standing wave patterns, and would contain multiple quanta. I am supposing that the number of quantum units in an electron is equal to the number of quanta at the surface of the proton for various reasons, but for this exercise that is just to have a relationship to allow us to do the calculations.

Area/Volume = (4 pi r^2)/(4/3 pi r^3) = 3/r = 1/1836,
therefore r=3*1836 = 5508, thus the radius of the proton is equal to 5508 quantum units.

4 pi r^2 = surface area of a sphere
4/3 pi r^3 = volume of a sphere
pi = 3.14159265

Quantum units in an electron = 381,239,356
Quantum units in a proton = 699,955,457,517

Last edited: Apr 9, 2013

7. ### hansdaValued Senior Member

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I think the force-equation F=dE/dx; [where F is force in the direction of dx(small distance) and dE is small energy change] can also be applied to the quantum particles.

For example , if an electron jumps from one shell to another shell by absorbing a photon particle, i think it can be said that force(F) applied to the electron is equal to: 'energy of photon'/'shell-distance jumped by the electron'.

8. ### quantum_waveContemplating the "as yet" unknownValued Senior Member

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It seems that the force would be electromagnetism at its finest

. The energy boost given the electron must be "work" produced by the absorption event. I find it interesting that an electron can absorb enough energy to break free from the proton as the energy density in the environment increases, say as the current increases or some acceleration of the atoms or molecules occurs, as in the LHC, where the protons are stripped of electrons very early in their acceleration. They get the protons up to velocities within a few percent or is it a fraction of a percent of the speed of light?

Anyway, good point, but too far afield from the simple discussion of the tiny energy quanta in my so called model (see the supposed number of quanta in a particle in my last post). If you have any interest though, I can relate some ideas of how the quanta of the photon is established, what I think its particle nature is like and what I think its wave nature is like. Quantifying gravity's mechanism and quantifying the photon, and the nature of the photons existence as it traverses space is a perfect way to highlight those characteristics.

9. ### quantum_waveContemplating the "as yet" unknownValued Senior Member

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If you remember the above post showing the convergence of two quantum waves, taking place within the standing wave pattern of a particle, you might be able to picture the scene where multiple quantum waves are intersecting at the same time within a greater standing wave pattern, as we considerd more and more quanta within a given particle. It might begin to look like this:

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Last edited: Apr 11, 2013
10. ### quantum_waveContemplating the "as yet" unknownValued Senior Member

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Note that I used the same diagram to depict multiple quanta within the standing wave pattern of a particle at the quantum level of order as I used in the Universe Finite? thread to depict multiple arenas in the big bang arena landscape.

I can do that because in my so called model, quantum action at the micro level and arena action at the macro level are very similar processes, one orchestrating the presence of particles and gravity, and the other orchestrating the defeat of entropy on a grand scale.
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11. ### quantum_waveContemplating the "as yet" unknownValued Senior Member

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To highlight the distinction between quantum action and arena action, the quantum level features expansion as the driving force, so the process is energy to matter to energy (e-m-e), and the arena level features gravity as the driving force, so the precess is matter to energy to matter (m-e-m).

At the quantum level, the pivot point begins with wave energy, the "e" in e-m-e, where wave energy in the early big bang arena is converted to matter when synchronized standing wave particles begin to form and exert gravity. At the arena level the initiative begins with galactic material, the "m" in m-e-m, where matter in the mature big bang arena is converted to wave energy when the separation momentum causes mature arenas to intersect and overlap forming big crunches/big bangs.

We can say it like this: The universe is governed by two overlapping but opposing forces, expansion and contraction. Every energy environment has both forces at work, working at odds, but each force has its preferred domain in which it dominates the action.
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12. ### quantum_waveContemplating the "as yet" unknownValued Senior Member

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It can also be said like this: The universe is the continual clash of opposing forces; expansion, characterized by decreasing energy density, giving spherical expansion the upper hand, vs collapse, characterized by increasing gravitational influence, giving gravitational collapse the upper hand.

If the larger environment is decreasing energy density, as it is when particles form, then expansion wins, and if the larger environment is increasing gravitational influence, as it is when arenas converge, then contraction wins out.

The pivot point, in either case, is quantified when the equation in the OP equals 1, whether being applied to the action as quantum waves intersect within a particle, or to the arena action where big bang arenas intersect in the landscape of the greater universe.

If things are moving away from you it is expansion and decreasing wave energy density. If things are moving toward you it is contraction and increasing gravitational influence.

OK, I'm over supplying those who appreciate "the nonsensical" for awhile; back to Captain Kremmen saves the universe; click here for YouTube video.

13. ### eramSciengineerValued Senior Member

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This 80s stuff is so weird and trippy.:m::xctd:

14. ### Q-reeusValued Senior Member

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I half feared starting a Kenny Everett/Captain Kremmen craze, but it has to be said it was brilliant humor rarely if ever seen nowadays. Evidently our very own CK was not amused - there being no feedback. Tch tch.

Anyway, not recommended for education on the real cosmos!

15. ### eramSciengineerValued Senior Member

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It's highly entertaining, and such things are quite hard to come by nowadays.

I mean, his ship is the Troll-1, and his mad scientist says "enough for 6 light-years" lol. light-years are a measure of distance.

16. ### hansdaValued Senior Member

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Electron has a non-zero mass. If this mass is accelerating, that means a "gravitational force" is working on it.

"Quantum Unit" as you have explained; are they in terms of weight or length?

How do you establish the quanta of a photon?

17. ### quantum_waveContemplating the "as yet" unknownValued Senior Member

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Yes, in terms of my so called model, the electron is a standing wave pattern with hundreds of thousands of quanta, as in my wild a** guess above (post #63). As the energy of a particle changes, the number of quanta in the particle changes.
If you got the phrase "quantum unit" from post #63 above, then that post gives the so called logic behind the calculation, i.e. the energy of the electron vs the proton. The electron has 1/1836 the energy of the proton under certain conditions according to some popular science media. The other piece is the unsupported idea that the electron has one quanta for every quanta on the surface of a proton. Put those two ideas together and you can then follow the calculations.

Edit: Oops, I misread your post and thought you said proton instead if photon. The energy of a photon is also in quanta, and the photon in my so called model has mass, though very tiny mass. I haven't got a method of establishing the quanta in a photon except to say that Max Planck's work lends itself to doing so given my so called model. I may address that in another thread, but my current activity off line is working up examples of my equation being applied to differences in directional inflowing wave energy density to show how the high density spots form in different locations relative to the centers of the parent converging quantum waves, i.e. to show gravity's mechanism at work.
Length, and in the exercise the length is the average diameter of the quanta that make up the particles. The so called principle I used was that each quanta starts out in size as the point of intersection between quantum waves in the standing wave pattern, and expands within the particle space until that expansion is interrupted, at which point they intersect with other expanding quanta. If there are hundreds of thousands of quanta, they range in size, but the concept of an average quanta in a particle can be established. The length of the diameter of an average spherical quanta is the quantum unit of length.

Each quanta has one quantum of wave energy, has an average diameter of one quantum length, and has a duration of one quantum period, all based on an average across the entire particle space at any instant, and all determined without any evidence that the guess is anything more than a convenient way to express the concept of the huge number of high density spots within a single particle using the energy relationship between the electron and the proton (three quarks) in my so called model.
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Last edited: Apr 13, 2013
18. ### quantum_waveContemplating the "as yet" unknownValued Senior Member

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The equation in the OP is written to work with any two expanding spherical waves, whether at the quantum level as in the standing wave pattern of a particle, or at the macro level as when two parent big bang arenas converge and overlap to produce a new big bang.

To test the equation I put some numbers into an excel spread sheet this week end and I was able to prove it to my satisfaction. The proof used the integer sequence submitted by Eric Weisstein for a sphere-sphere intersection.

See here.

The equation in the OP proves to be mathematically correct on that basis.

In the test I used figures out to ten or more decimal places, but for this post I'll round then off a bit:

R = 1.0642
r = 1.0642
H = .6946
h = .6946

The resulting sphere-sphere intersection as depicted in the OP has a value for d (distance between centers) = .73917. That yields Weisstein's constant:

d/r = 0.69459...

If someone would confirm it I would appreciate it.

See edit above: d/r=0.69459...
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19. ### hansdaValued Senior Member

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If you can measure the "shell distance" in terms of your "quantum unit"; i think you can measure the "quantum force" applied by particle "photon" to particle "electron".

20. ### quantum_waveContemplating the "as yet" unknownValued Senior Member

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If I can respond based on by so called model, that is true, but it is also true that a photon always has the same energy in vacuum because it gets all of its inflowing wave energy component from the direction of motion. If you understand my so called model you know that motion is determined by the imbalance in the directionally inflowing wave energy, so in the case of the photon, its motion is in a straight line as long as the directionally inflowing wave energy density is constant in the direction that the photon is radiated.

21. ### eramSciengineerValued Senior Member

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He can't even understand simple classical mechanics. Just check out his other thread.

22. ### hansdaValued Senior Member

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When the photon is being absorbed by an electron, there is some energy-change in the electron. The electron jumps from one shell to another shell. So if you can measure this shell distance(which the electron is jumping) in terms of your "quantum unit", you can measure the quantum force on electron; as energy of a photon can be known from its wavelength.

23. ### quantum_waveContemplating the "as yet" unknownValued Senior Member

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True, but the partilces in my model have internal composition unlike the fundamental particles of the Standard Model; they are composed of quanta in standing wave patterns with inflowing and out flowing wave energy components sustaining their presence, so when you talk about shells, that theoretical construct is still useful for quantification, but does not correspond directly to the quantum action depiced in my so called model.

Last edited: Apr 16, 2013