Questions on atheist morality

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by S.A.M., Apr 30, 2008.

  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    There are some atheists who do not believe in God because of all the pain and suffering in the world. They point out to the evils of religion such as child abuse and the death of innocents.

    However, IMO, notions of good and bad, right and wrong are based in religion.

    In a nonreligious universe, there is no judgment, there is only opinion and personal values. Which means that for an atheist, there should exist no notions of abuse or suffering or wrongdoing with regard to others, only natural selection and need-driven actions of the self and those related to self.

    Most if not all atheists ground their moral concepts in the good of the individual. This "good" itself is utilitarian (actions are only good which act as instruments to produce personal pleasure or satisfaction, along with health and the extension of life). Furthermore, what counts as "evil" or "bad" are those things that harm personal pleasure and health, and go against our "instinct of self-preservation".

    So applying this morality to society, if an atheist finds personal pleasure and satisfaction in say, abusing a child, should there be a moral objection from their moral perspective?
     
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  3. ashura the Old Right Registered Senior Member

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    This is absolutely incorrect. Just because you presume that it's either utilitarianism or divine command theory, and nothing else, doesn't make it true. There are other brands of ethics that have been derived away from those two.

    Your question is not so much one that's directed against atheists as it is one directed against utilitarianism.
     
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  5. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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  7. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    morality is bullshit and religious folk are probably some of the worst perpetrators of harm in this world. judgement is a realization of the truth according to law. law...not religion.
     
  8. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    And when priests can rape children and their Catholic Church protects them and then hides them at another church to rape again and by paying off the children's parents with hush money is that any better? Religions have been at the forefront of wars throughout time as well. They kill others that won't "believe" in their mythology.

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  9. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    There is factual evidence to support that.

    Good and evil are religious notions and have no meaning in nature.

    Morals and ethics are derived from reason, the same reasoning that would preclude the need for gods. Theists also have to produce evidence to their claims of judgment, for which they have none.

    Theists have no idea what morals and ethics entail beyond their own doctrines.

    Theists commonly use deception and intellectual dishonesty to create scenarios that support their fallacious arguments.
     
  10. ashura the Old Right Registered Senior Member

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    This is irrelevant. Just because members of a religion do bad things doesn't make the religion itself bad unless it's explicitly stated those bad things should be done. Where in the bible do you see priests being instructed to have sex with children?
     
  11. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    This isn't irrelevant because I was just showing that crimes take place with or without religions. When a Catholic hierarchy can find the money, time and hiding place for criminals that break the laws of man, then I'd say they aren't any better than what atheists are all about. It is like the pot calling the kettle black!
     
  12. ashura the Old Right Registered Senior Member

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    What you see there is a corruption of religion by man, that corruption isn't inherent in the religion. So no, it would be wrong to call religion the pot in this case. Similarly, if some atheist bozo makes some atheist bozo organization and does things that I find reprehensible, I'm not going to start thinking that atheism is inherently corrupted.
     
  13. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    So when does the Catholic Church get to override the laws of the state? Few athiests have the billions of dollars as the church has to pay off everyone and get away with criminal activities. You cannot say that the Catholic Church isn't getting away with breaking the laws and covering them up with their own religions money, power and businesses. Again I only state this because the religions are always telling people to do the right thing yet they turn around and do whatever it is they want to against the laws of man.
     
  14. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Atheists and theists share the same exact moral base. In the U.S. a survey was performed on human morality and both atheists and theists responded identically.

    It's my observation that human morality is based on these fundamental built-in biological assessments:

    * Is X mean? (rational threat assessment)
    * Is X nice? (rational value assessment)
    * Does X satisfy? (emotional value assessment)

    Of course there is alot of wiggle room for culture and religion to overload these assessments in various scenarios.
     
  15. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    People understood the concepts of good and evil long before they invented gods and religion. You do understand that all gods are made up bullshit, right, S.A.M.?
     
  16. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    Here we go, vacation is over, Sam is back with her INANE questions. There is clearly no god:

    I happened to grew up in an atheist country and guess what, the murder and crime rate were way lower than in most Western European countries. Now, that it is a free for all religiously speaking, the crime rate is way up again.

    Of course I made a logical fallacy, but you wouldn't have noticed it anyway. But there is a thingy called : THE LAW OF THE LAND!!!

    Anyway, I wasted too much time on this thread already...
     
  17. EmmZ It's an animal thing Registered Senior Member

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    There are plenty of people who don't believe in a creator god who still have fully functioning discriminatory abilities. The pain and suffering in the world prove the non-existence of an all-loving, omnipotent, creator. Even we mere humans can see there is no logic in the dispensation of suffering. If such a being existed that allowed for that on the promise of a grand plan, then that would directly contradict the definitions of aforementioned all-loving, etc. creator.



    This is basing the case on the assumption that without religion there is no discriminatory mind. It's also basing assumptions that anything other than humans don't have intentional abilities. I don't subscribe.

    I'm not sure I agree. Most people base their morality on a general consensus. but I do agree good is utilitarian, but then what isn't, or can be? I don't agree good equates to pleasure though. Not immediately. Some actions are good but difficult. The last part of this statement is unclear to me. I understood it to mean that there is a negative connotation to low moral behaviour, which is discordant with our self grasping. I'm sorry, I don't understand how you came to this conclusion.

    This does beg the question "Why are there laws?", "Do we follow laws just to fit in, or because of fear of the ones who uphold it?" "Are laws something we should follow without question"?

    Lastly, I've noticed there is a lot of opinion that seems to suggests if we are not a religious being then we are nothing more than animals. While, for the most part, I do think this applies to society as a whole. I don't think most people would agree we are animals. This means those of us who are atheists may also have a moral code without thinking they are merely some genetic anomaly wandering around an ever expanding universe. Created by something other than a god.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2008
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    No one has answered the question.
     
  19. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    Whether he is an atheist, theist or golf playing astrologer is neither here nor there. If the person finds personal satisfaction and pleasure in what they do then it is unlikely they would have a moral objection to it from their moral perspective. (That's not to say they couldn't recognise the action as against societal laws).
     
  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Do all atheists agree with this?

    If there is no good or evil, what is the basis of morality?
     
  21. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    For educational purposes:

    We just can not KNOW. There is only 1 (repeat, ONE) thing what atheists agree on, you make an educated guess what it is.

    Usefulness. I personally like to use useful or not useful instead of good or bad, since it is LESS subjective than the notion of goodness or badness..
     
  22. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    Which one? You know me, I can answer ALL questions, except why do you have the need to start a thread in every 3 days on this topic.

    So again hon, what was your burning question that left you unstatisfied??
     
  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Hmm so you agree with my opening post. No morality except utilitarianism. Thanks.
     

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