Reality is mathematics / Mathematics is reality ?

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Write4U, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I did say I had seen similar optical illusions and knew the answer. But my mind is still fooled by the illusion. It's like a computer color analysis with a program to adjust for shadows.
    I really like the chessboard illusion and the auditory voice recognition in Anil Seth's video and how flexible the auditory cognition system is as opposed to the visual cognitive system.

    IMO, the mirror neurons play a great part in all this. Fascinating stuff. But very mathematical in essence.
     
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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Thing is, I didn't ask what the frequency was, I asked what the colour was.

    I see a red heart and a purple heart:

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    I'll wager that's what you see too.
     
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, that's what I said. But I know that this is an illusion created by the brains inability to adjust for the relative juxtapositions of the colors. Very similar to the brain automatically adjusting to render (see) things lighter in the shade than what they may be in reality.

    The colors are the same, your brain just interprets them wrong.

    p.s. your eyes "see", but your brain can only "guess" what your eyes see. The inside of your skull is totally dark and your brain only gets second-hand information and processes it just as any computer would.
    Thus your brain does not see anything, it can only guess at what your eyes see. Hence the illusion. The colors are the same. Remove the vertical lines and both hearts are exactly the same.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
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  7. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    :sigh: You missed the whole point then.
    Colour is in the eye of the beholder.

    There's a blueish green in that diagram.
    It might be a single wavelength of 500nm; it might be two combined wavelengths of 490nm and 520nm.

    It might be ten combined wavelengths anywhere on the spectrum between 400nm and 700nm.
    Colour and wavelength do not have a simple 1:1 relationship. And its subjective.

    A computer with a hundred sensors, each sensitive to a different wavelength will distinguish ten distinct wavelengths.
    A human will distinguish one.


    And, while we're at it, since these are computer images, there's no cyan at all. They're three distinct wavelengths: one around 675nm, another around 550 and a third 460.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
  8. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Your eyes respond to a broad range of wavelengths - to a differing degree, depending on the wavelengths. We may have hundreds or thousands of wavelengths impinging on us, but our receptors simply sum all this up and send a single signal, of the summed strength in one of three pathways.

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    And BTW, your eyes see differently than mine.
     
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I agree. But optical illusions are exactly that, for both of us.

    What you think you see is not what's out there in reality. That is why it is called an "optical illusion", its not real.
     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Yes and when in close proximity these colors will affect how your brain interprets them. You did notice that there was a reversal in the striped pattern, in relation to the hearts in the background. This reversal is what creates the illusion of a color shift in the brain's translation. Remove the lines and both hearts are identical.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    That is flat wrong. Color is in the brain of the beholder. It's not even the same as a camera lens and a photographic plate. The eyes convert the wave frequencies into electro-chemical qu-bits, which are then retranslated by the brain as a holographic image inside the brain itself. It's the brain that does the thinking, not the eyes.
     
  12. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    The fact that we categorize them under the generic label of optical illusions does not affect the physics.


    OK, that will do too. The point I was making is that colour is not an objective phenomenon; it is an emergent phenomenon of the observer.

    "Eye of the beholder" is just an expression, meaning "subjective". Sloppy choice on my part.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
  13. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    What is "out there in reality" is not a "colour".

    A given swatch of pigment may be comprised of an unlimited number of wavelengths of light. By that fact alone, it conclusively shows that there is not a 1:1 correlation between colour and wavelength.

    What you might erroneously call a "cyan" wavelength of light might have no "cyan wavelengths" in it at all. It could be comprised of pure green and pure blue with nothing in between.

    What meaning could there be in saying
    "a given emission of light might be
    one wavelength of 500nm
    or possibly
    two wavelengths, one of 490nm and one of 510nm
    or perhaps
    three wavelengths, one strong one at 450nm, and two dim ones of 500nm and 600 nm respectively
    or even
    one hundred wavelengths, half of them crowded around 560nm and the other half crowded around 450nm - and not a single wavelength anywhere near 500nm"
    or any others in infinite number combination"
    ?
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Optical illusion are optical illusions, by any other name. What you think you see is not what the rods in your eyes perceive. Because of the brain's limitations it cannot correctly process what the eyes perceive.

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    The checker shadow illusion.
    Although square A appears a darker shade of grey than square B, in the image the two have exactly the same luminance.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_illusion
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
  15. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    This is irrelevant. You are wandering.

    Colours are not wavelengths, colours are interpretations of a(n unlimited) gamut of wavelengths by an observer.

    The rods in your eyes perceive a continuum of light across the visible spectrum, and the observer renders that down to a single colour.

    See here again: your "green" receptors sense light across the entire visible spectrum (as do red and blue) - they just happen to be centred on a particular range. An infinite combination of discrete wavelengths can be perceived as a single colour under the right circumstances. Colour is not an objective property of light.

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  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Here are some interesting Optical illusions.

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    All lines are horizontal and parallel.....Can you make her spin both ways?
     
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    No I am not , you are. I am talking about optical illusions which fool the brain into projecting something that isn't there.
    I don't care about frequencies, wave lengths, hues, or shades. I am not talking about colors. I am talking about the brain's inability to correctly process information when presented with certain conflicting mental stimuli.

    In your illustration, the red hearts are exactly the same red (by any other name).
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
  18. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    So you want to change subjects. No problem.

    We were talking about colours and frequencies. I brought in optical illusions as a sidebar to show River how colours are subjective.

    But sure. You are conceding that earlier discussion then, and acknowledging that wavelengths are objective properties and colours are subjective perceptions dependent on the observer.
     
  19. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Please stay on topic.
     
  20. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    How do you know they're the same?
     
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    That is the illusion, you think you see two different reds or purple, but they are exactly the same.
    It is the difference in the background and foreground stripes which introduce the illusion.
     
  22. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    My question was: how do you know they're the same? How did you determine this? Or are you guessing?
     
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Oh sure, nothing controversial about that.
    https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/resources/47-colours-of-light
     

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