Reality is mathematics / Mathematics is reality ?

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Write4U, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    +1.
    W4U is not a nut. He is quite insightful, if just a bit - in Yazata's words - enthusiastic.


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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Thank you, on introspection you are spot on.
    I agree.
    This would be an excellent challenge from a QM scientist, At his scale mathematics do not seem to work. I think it is more of a cosmologist's speculation. Many respected cosmologists argue that they are only discovering mathematical patterns which are already there and that mathematics led them on the path of those discoveries in the first place. It would seem natural that a person so engaged would be inclined to favor the concept of a form of fundamental universal mathematical potentials.
    One cosmologist observed, "if you ask the universe a question and you ask it nicely (accurately), the universe will give you the answer".
    I found that rather profound coming from a "learned fellow"
    Yes, and that certainly deserves the warning of "controversial" and "extremely controversial" (note: it is Tegmark's chart)
    Perhaps I am naive and have more faith in scientists credentials than it deserves, but he is a professor at MIT and has the endorsement of Brian Greene, himself a respected physicist.

    The fact remains, as you alluded to, that everything we know about reality and natural dynamics, is fairly well described by our own symbolic language that describes reality and natural patterns as translated into our discipline of symbolic mathematical values and functions (forms of mathematics)
    As with all languages, once you know the subtleties of a language one can express many observable patterns, if not ALL, with our mathematics.

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    Then I liked this challenge to himself.
    No one can accuse him of being closed to criticism.

    Nor do I need to agree with him on his criticism of Hameroff, which has since been proven premature.

    It's true, I see mathematics at a metaphysical level, that is I believe that reality for us can only exist through the concept of "relative values and functions". An inherent potential of a dynamic spacetime geometry.

    I just have never run across anything that comes close, except for Bohm's "Implicate order" and Renate Loll's "CDT" (causal dynamical triangulation), a mathematical construct which;
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_dynamical_triangulation

    That's getting close to "our" reality, no?.....

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    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    It's mathematically impossible, given the dynamic environment.

    Any pattern must mathematically be able to form, subject to the mathematics of its environment.

    Can't make a triangle out of 2 points
    Or a square out of 3 points

    There is no way to defeat the mathematics of any pattern.
     
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  7. river

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    Exactly

    Disagree to your last statement

    The mathematics of any pattern has a way of changing behind you at the same time you are searching for the pattern its self .
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, and that means such a pattern could never develop. It's mathematically impossible.
    Yes, but it changes mathematically, while WE are searching.

    The cosmologists specifically posit that they are discovering these once hidden universal patterns, their mathematical equations and their subsequent mathematical behaviors.

    Newton;

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    Newton wondered what caused an apple to fall down and discovered the mathematics (patterns) of gravity and motion.

    Aristotle also had a very logical theory of gravity, which Galileo proved to be mathematically incorrect.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  9. river

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    And the essence of mathematics , is based on physical objects . And their inherent properties .

    Three dimensionally

    Hence the mathematics of movement
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  10. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    No. Mathematics excels at describing lot of things that are not physical at all.

    Mathematics is the opposite of real, physical things. Though mathematics can be applied to physical things.
     
  11. river

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    Disagree

    Mathematics is inherent to any physical thing that has three dimensional form,

    Hence without any physical form , mathematics has no basis , or , foundatin on which to exist .
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  12. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Order may be inherant in all 3 dimensional things.
    Mathematics is merely a shorthand logic tool used by humans to aid in the understanding of that order.
     
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  13. river

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    Without order , matter could not exist
     
  14. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    This is faulty logic.

    Just because A requires B, it does not follow that B requires A.
    Just because we can describe any physical object using math, it does not follow that math can only describe physical things.

    Math is quite capable of describing 4-dimensional hyperobjects without them having any physicality.
    Math is quite capable of describing the Mandelbrot set without it having any physicality.
    Math is quite capable of describing 10-dimensional string space without it having any physicality.
     
  15. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    We could just as easily claim that the universe is digital; made up of ones and zeros! Programmed and programmable.
     
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Note, that this suggests that if we can understand the orders through mathematical symbols and equations the orders themselves have to be of a natural non-symbolic form of mathematical values and functions.

    This is why we were able to devise a symbolic language of values and functions to describe these existing orders. We can translate because natural universal orders are of a mathematical essence.

    I am not using the term mathematics as a human invented symbolic language, but in the broadest sense of measurable quantities and qualities of universal functions and orderly patterns emerging from these consistent orders as expressed in the physics of spacetime.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I doubt the universe uses artificial algorithms, just as it does not use artificial mathematics.
     
  18. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Explain the distinction between natural and artificial if you can please?
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    "NATURA ARTIS MAGISTRA" Nature is the teacher of art.

    Natural; universal potentials.
    Artificial; human imitations of natural potentials.
     
  20. river

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    But none are real objects

    All that real objects need to manifest , is three dimensions , nothing more .

    So what would , how would , mathematics base any object on numbers alone , with out the object existing in the first place ?

    How does just numbers give any existence to any physical object ? How do numbers , in and of themselves produce reality to physical objects , of any form ?

    Numbers can not
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    How does just a name give existence to a physical object?

    Numbers define patterns. Three points always result in the formation of a 2D triangle (plane), from any perspective, expressed physically or as an abstract pattern.
     
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  22. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Correct.

    Four, actually, since they wouldn't exist without time.

    Because that's what math does best.

    I listed several things that are mathematically described, yet have no physical existence.

    There exist useful conceptual structures that require more than three physical dimensions to properly represent, meaning their representation cannot exist in the real world, only in the abstract world of mathematics.

    I have several of these concepts (3-dimensional shadows of 4-dimensional concepts) in my office, right now.

    Nor has anyone suggested they do.


    Remember what you said:

    "... the essence of mathematics , is based on physical objects . And their inherent properties ..."

    That is not true.
     
  23. river

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    To your last statement , how is this not true ?
     

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