Reasons not to believe in God

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Magical Realist, Nov 3, 2012.

  1. Gerhard Kemmerer Banned Banned

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  3. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    I think the complaint would be that if God can punish the innocent, than all bets are off as far as any absolute morality. It's the most severe case imaginable of "do as I say, not as I do."
     
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  5. Gerhard Kemmerer Banned Banned

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    By the way, the sins are visited, not the offspring. If your father was a jerk, (illustration only) God will make sure that you get the message not to be like him - He will visit the sins of your father that you have inherited or learned off him. That's doing you a favour.
     
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  7. Gerhard Kemmerer Banned Banned

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    consequence - punishment

    Big debate or simple? Mmm. I don't feel confident to go there. I'll wait and see where Magical wants the thread to go.
     
  8. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    You were confident enough a few posts ago...
     
  9. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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  10. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    Reason is behind faith. If one did not believe they would have to be a liar. They would literally have to BELIEVE that they do NOT believe!
     
  11. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    No need to be sarcastic, this IS a discussion. Right?

    ''

    Hate to break it to you, but there is nothing that say's the mother was religious, or was motivated by ''religion''.

    This type of murder is called ''filicide'' and is usually followed by the parent commiting suicide afterward (filicide-suicide), but not in all cases.

    You may be interested in a study which looks into this phenomena in detail, and you'll be hard-pushed to find ''religion'' as a motivation.

    jan.
     
  12. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    "I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children...

    In my college years I assisted a neighborhood family whose son was nearly completely paralyzed by muscular dystrophy. From the neck down he was limp as a rag doll. His mother had suffered a spinal nerve injury from years of lifting her helpless child from his wheelchair, and needed help. This angelic child, whose innocent personality was only emerging when the paralysis set in, had already dissolved into a state of withdrawal by the time I arrived on the scene. He rarely acknowledged me, and when he did, it was with terse expressions of indifference. Anyone who spent a little time with him would have been driven to tears. It took every ounce of emotional stamina for me to keep gently reaching out to him, to try to encourage him to keep expressing his wishes, whether it was for a sip of water, to shift his position, to read to him or tell him stories of my own, or to find anything at all that remained interesting to him.

    He was never given any cause to associate his hellish existence with any crime of his parents, particularly since they were saintly people who -- until their lives were disrupted by his disability -- had every day been actively involved in community service, volunteering at their church and school, running food and clothing drives for the poor, dressing as clowns to cheer up other people's sick children at the hospital, at a frenetic rate -- usually juggling multiple projects per week. And the idea that his parents had somehow provoked God to do this to him as a warning became impossibly moot as his young mind deteriorated.

    He suffered for years, as did the whole family. But before he died he learned that his younger brother, who had begun falling down, subsequently tested positive. Since this brother had an identical twin, the older brother at some point realized that he would precede them both in death by perhaps a few years. He knew that both boys would run the same excruciating gauntlet he had run. This was the only substantial information for him, shortly before his death, to associate with the hell that had been inflicted on him. There was no indication whatsoever that he should associate it with his father, much less anything his father might have conceivably done wrong, or anything remotely suggesting it.

    The belief that God tortures, maims and kills innocent and helpless children--as learning tool--is utterly outrageous.

    After the last child died, the older sisters made a pact. They went together in solidarity, all 7 of them, and had their tubes tied. And that was the only lesson learned.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
  13. Gerhard Kemmerer Banned Banned

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  14. Gerhard Kemmerer Banned Banned

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    Visiting the iniquity not the consequences. Ezekiel 18:2,3 "The father's have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge" As I live, says the Lord God you will not have any occasion to use this proverb ...as the soul of the father so also the soul of the son... the soul that sins it shall die"

    Everyone is responsible for their own actions.

    I am very touched by your story and so glad that you were there to demonstrate that unconditional love, I am sure he felt it even though not always able to show his gratitude. The world needs more people like you.
     
  15. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    Religion was a part of the motivation. I am not saying that it is the motivation. Take religion entirely out of the picture- now- try again and see if she would do the same actions, even if she was totally non-religious.
    Do we know the answer? I believe that the chances of her commuting the same acts would be reduced, but not eliminated by removing one factor.

    A weak mind can be influenced, you see.
     
  16. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Neverfly,

    Did you not read the highlighted parts I posted?

    That is exactly what you're trying to say, which is why you posted the link in this thread.

    ''Religion'' isn't in the picture, and her reason for killing was not religious.
    Provide some reasoning for this accusation, or retract the statement as it is very misleading.


    As far as we know from the link you provided, we do.
    The highlighted section, plus we can get a better psychological profile from studies that have been carried out.


    Why do you think this?



    So you're saying people who believe in GOD are weak-minded?

    What is the evidence for this?

    jan.
     
  17. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    I have said what I am trying to say. Do not re-interprete what I say, Jan. I get enough of that from others.
    I say what I mean and I mean what I say.
    My statements were not misleading- your re-interpretation of them may make them appear to be. I said it clearly- the woman was heavily influenced.
    The religion is not to blame for her behavior. She is. She may have done that even if she lacked belief in deities. However, the strong influence that played on her mind cannot be denied. If that influence was removed, it also may have prevented that extreme behavior.
    This is a good and fair question.

    The answer is: Yes, I believe that the strong belief in religion is a weak minded effort. However, it does not mean the person has a weak mind- it means they are choosing a weak mind.
    I do believe some people have little choice, that they simply are doing the best they can with what they have. I believe others have a strong choice on the matter and many are indoctrinated but overcome that and have a stronger mind.
     
  18. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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  19. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    When a mother is beating her kid for not properly quoting passages from the Koran then yes religion is the motivation. How can you can claim otherwise?
     
  20. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    The mother hit the child? People like this don't usually seek motivation, and when they find him he would tell them to take a hike. She is probably just a bad mother sucking up to God through the church.
     
  21. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Read the bolded parts of the quote I gave then explain where ''religion'' comes into it.
    The mother is a nutter, who couldn't stand her child's failure, irritating her to the point of murder.
    IOW, a pushy parent who took it too far. It's more likely she felt embarrased.

    jan.

    jan.
     
  22. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    She was a religious nut. A common variety in this day and age.
     
  23. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Wow. It's stories like that that bring home the total uselessness of religion as a viable explanation for human existence. How can anyone glibly claim after all this that well, God really loves them and it was his will afterall? Such tragic events underscore the total indifference of fate and the universe to our lives. There is no loving being out there protecting us and blessing us with special favors. Life is a crap shoot from the moment you're born until you die. And all of human experience confirms this.
     

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