Redirecting/stopping Magnetic Fields

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by Harnu, Mar 12, 2003.

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  1. Harnu Semper Fidelis Registered Senior Member

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    I was wondering, is it possible to restrict or redirect a magnetic field.

    Some people I asked were saying Rubber, wood, or certain ceramics can do the job. But I'm not too sure.

    So is it possible to redirect or restrict a magnetic field into going a certain direction or not at all? For a deisgn of a machine I'm making there can be no metal (Besides the magnets) involved. So placing a thin aluminum plate of the parts I want restricted is out of the question. I need none of the magnets power to be distracted by more metal except for themselves.

    (Don't laugh but it's for a theory on perpetual motion)
     
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  3. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    HAHA!!! Oh sorry

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  5. AntonK Technomage Registered Senior Member

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    What is it in particular that causes perpetual motion to be impossible. I realize that even if one existed that you couldn't pull energy out or it would slow down (obvious). But what makes it impossible simply to set up a machine that will simply run forever. It seems that an orbit is just that. It is a "machine" that will run forever (if there were no other matter in the universe).

    -AntonK
     
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  7. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    In the short term, friction will stop it. If no friction then the system will eventual just break down.
    In an ideal system perpetual is possible... but reality isn't ideal.
     
  8. Harnu Semper Fidelis Registered Senior Member

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    Friction could stop it. But the magnets keep it in motion. Obviously it couldn't run indefinately. But it could run for quite a while. Just wanting to show that something not running off conventionaly enegergy (Gas, heat, electric, or otherwise) can "create" energy. (Simply transfering motion to engery skipping the steps before hand. I.E like the sun, then the weather curretns, then the wind what would spin a turbine.)
     
  9. halocowboy Registered Member

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    To block a magnetic field...

    It is necessary to redirect the magnetic flux lines, usually using ferric substances. So if you put a magnet inside an iron box, that will typically prevent the outside of the box from being magnetic.

    Some elements have diamagnetic (anti-magnetic) properties, but the effect is rather weak. Both bismuth and carbon exhibit this effect.

    Finally, a superconductor will reflect a magnetic field (aka, the Meissner effect); however, strong magnetic fields also interrupt the superconducting state so the reflective effect is limited.

    Perpetual motion devices are considered impossible I think because of the law of conservation of energy. Any device is going to have losses in it. However, perpetual motion of a sort seems to exist inside of atoms - electrons are always moving around, unless perhaps the substance is at absolute zero.
     
  10. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    The 2nd law of thermal dynamics is the show stopper... energy is always lost and nothing can run with 100% efficiency. Electrons a waves... kind of... lets not get into how fuck up the tiny quantum mechanical world is.
     
  11. Harnu Semper Fidelis Registered Senior Member

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    The machine I was designing wasn't really a perpetual motion machine. I was trying to make something that wouldn't run off conventional energy.

    So is there anyway to redirect/stop a magneticfield from pushing/pulling a certain way?
     
  12. Weisse Bora Registered Member

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    Actually superconductors...

    Something that "runs" forever or nearly is the superconductive electromagnet utilized in magnetic resonance imaging. The superconductive coil is wound from a coextruded wire which is then heat treated to make a somewhat brittle intermetalic superconductor. A short section of this coil is kept above the transition temperature while current is passed through the rest of the coil to create the magnetic field. as soon as the current density is sufficient, the section of the coil is allowed to cool and the current in the coil is virtually perpetual.

    Since the drift velocity in the superconductor is nearly relativistic, the resultant magnetic fields are very high outside the superconductor and are completely excluded by the superconductor itself.
     
  13. vladtess Registered Member

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    Friction does is not the problem in perpetual motion. Indeed, friction stops all perpetual motion, however if you could create a perfect system where there is no friction or any other form of energy loss, then you would end up with a device which cycles for ever, never stopping. That device would be useless though, because no energy would be possible to exact: friction created by the generator (or alike) would stop the perpetual motion to a halt.

    By the way, I know people who really think that maybe, just maybe there is a way to extract energy from magnets. It caches the minds of inventors because inventors themselves aren't literate enough about the magnetic fields and the laws of math that elaborate whey that is not possible. Lesson: 15 minutes can save you 15% or more on car insurance... nah, kidding. 15 minutes in library can save you days in lab.

    But yeah, redirecting the magnetic fields is possible.
     
  14. wildgoody Registered Member

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    Not really perpetual motion

    Harnu, if you don't understand that Aluminum has no magnetic properties,
    and also that wood, lead, plastic etc. have no affect on a magnetic field,
    you don't understand the concepts needed to create the machine you are
    working on. That said, I understand what you are trying to do, and in the
    thought process it seems like it should work, but it is a net zero gain, it
    will not run, not even if you offset the magnets to minimize the opposing
    affect of the fields, the wheel will eventually will come back around and
    stop the motion.

    Magnetic force is one of the simple ways to get something for "nothing"
    other than the price of the magnet. The energy in the magnet lasts far
    longer than the cost making it free energy once purchased.

    The problem is the field has a repulsion as well as an attraction, this
    equalizes the energy to zero, no work performed.

    Now if someone can develop a method to shield the field that isn't wanted
    so the opposing force is reduced or eliminated you could in thought anyway
    develop a push only force that could do work.

    There isn't enough energy to overcome the opposing forces, so another
    form of energy must be employed, once this is done, and if that source is
    "free" you have developed a free energy machine, now how much work
    you could get out of it is another story.

    I think I have a way to make this work, it involves free moving components
    to minimize the opposing force, and gravity to add the required energy to
    keep the whole thing working, but the size has limit, and the torque produced
    won't be very high, in fact it would be a small amount of kinetic energy that
    would overcome the friction and drag, the RPM speed wouldn't be very high,
    and would be self regulating through centrifugal force.

    Comments or suggestions?
     
  15. DRZion Theoretical Experimentalist Valued Senior Member

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    I would suggest working with electric fields rather than magnetic fields if you are not afraid of getting electrocuted. :thumbsup:
     
  16. LongH Registered Member

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    Harnu,

    Please don't listen to comments that only offer negatives. Whatever machine you're building is quite interesting. You may not be able to harness the energy in the magnet due to 2nd law of thermal dymanic, but you can build a step up engine using very small engine or small motor to control much bigger magnetic engine. As a result, you can build an automobile that can travel 500 miles/gal or a generator can produce megawatts of electricity using very small amount of gas.
     
  17. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    Actually that's not completely true. I can remember a rather interesting piece convey by Adam Hart-Davis on the subject. Aluminium according to the show and of course "visual proof" can be used in stopping fast objects through a form of friction induction. It is both used on fairground rides like fast roller coasters or high building elevators.

    The method is that the induction can cause a charge that will create a magnetic field that can be used to control how a carriage or car passes with statically aligned magnets.
     
  18. Uno Hoo Registered Senior Member

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    Different substances, including pure empty vacuum, have a quality of giving easy (or hard) passage to a magnetic field. Some substances give a great resistance. Others give little resistance. Some even help the field get through.

    Magnetic Permeability is the name of the quality. Ferromagnetic materials such as Iron help the field.

    Aluminum is in the class of materials that are strange and very interesting. In contrast to Iron, which captures and draws in a magnetic field, Aluminum acts to try to distant itself from the field. This class of material is Diamagnetic.

    Someone researching the plausibility of using a magnetic field to get perpetual motion should thoroughly study magnetism themself. Consulting experts are liable to have strong personal opinion about the possibility, or, impossibility, of such motion, and consequently give you truncated or biased advice about the associated fields you are concerned with.

    You should research: Ferromagnetism, Diamagnetism, and, Paramagnetism. And research Superconductors. Famously, at extremely low temperature, some materials exclude magnetic fields perfectly. In a famous ongoing experiment, a lead ball has been magnetically levitating above a superconductor coil for decades now. Because the ball distances itself from the field which is physically forced to be below it.

    While some have a strong knee jerk reaction to the subject of perpetual motion, I believe that is is of value to investigate a possibility. The worst that can happen is that the researcher will will prove (and hopefully publish another way that looked good but got proved wrong) that the mainstream Physics beliefs are true.

    The best that can happen is that somehow 40 million experts were wrong, but, free energy from perpetual motion genuinely would set the human race free from poverty.
     
  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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  20. Uno Hoo Registered Senior Member

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  21. c50u13 Registered Member

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    Interesting still...

    Who knew... I just started studing AC and DC motors on my on a week ago. That led me to research electro-magnetic and magnetic waves, which brought me to associate atoms as using this same system to rotate around a nuclei.

    Then I associated how an atom is theorized to rotate and I related to our own solar system. If this is true, then the factor of gravity has to come into count to keep earth and the solar system spinning.

    The more I research these things the more theories I come up with. I have had no college for what that matters. I find all of my theories I reach has also been a theory of someone else that seems not to be concluded. My most recent one was if you could eliminate one of the forces of a magnet you possibly could have perpetual motion.

    Not saying that using the magnets power to create something useful by it, but it reasonable stands that you could take your findings from that and relate it to electromagnets.

    I know this post might be dead, but I'd really like to talk to someone about these things...
     
  22. KilljoyKlown Whatever Valued Senior Member

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    Pretty good Q & A at site below.

    What Happens at Absolute Zero?
     
  23. KilljoyKlown Whatever Valued Senior Member

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    I watch a program about how a rail gun worked. The gun itself is constructed with powerful electric magnets, but the projectiles are non-magnetic, they were however encased with a conducting material such as aluminum. When the magnetic fields come on they create an electrical charge in the conductor which is perpendicular to magnetic fields. This causes the projectile to be accelerated at high speed.

    Anyway the point being, a substance need not be magnetic to be affected by magnetic fields.

    Also, while it may be impossible to achieve perpetual motion. It is possible to approach perpetual motion, kind of like it's possible to approach absolute zero. Neither one can ever be reached in reality, but the exercise of approaching those unattainable limits can produce some very positive results.
     
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