Religion and women.

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Xelasnave.1947, Jan 12, 2021.

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  1. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    Ah, I see now. Yes, you've accurately pointed out the errors. Frankly, I'm not sure why a non-Christian (on this forum specifically) would fixate on the Bible as being the root of sexism and misogyny, when there are non-Christian/atheist/agnostic men on this very forum (and elsewhere) who are sexist. Why are some men who are atheists, prone to misogyny and sexist behaviors? If the OP wants to blame religious texts and religion in general, on why some religious men are misogynists and sexists ...who can atheists blame?

    I'm not being smart, I'm genuinely asking that question.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
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  3. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Good morning Weggs.

    My fixation I can describe thus......

    Sexism is a problem to do with our culture.

    Our culture is defined to a large degree by religion and movies...mostly kids learn morality and what is "normal" bahaviour at church and in front of the tv etc...to think school is it would be failing to take all things into account..plus many schools are religious theaters anyways.

    The USA is a country where you can find at a minimum of 20 % of the population ( but possibly as high as 40%) take the bible literally...now these folk read something in the bible it is taken on board as " gospel"... in this country religion also has a high following..our parliament opens with reference to god and saying the Lord's prayer... now the bible does not treat women very well at all and I suggest the only reason you can not bring yourself to admit this glaring fact is because you are a believer...do you not consider just the quotes that I listed gives reason for a concern that is somewhat fixated?

    Now sure many folk are atheist but if you take the time to research domestic violence you will become aware that a significant reason why it occurs is because Christian men have it in their mind ( how did that get there?) that a women must obey the man etc..you will discover that many Christian men cite passages from the bible they state is their god given right to treat women in line with what the bible sets out...please look into it...

    Now take Paddo..raised as Catholic...do you not think that just maybe the church has rubbed off on him even though he is now Athiest...now I don't know what he was taught but I would say given the way the church dictates morality that just maybe he would have encountered a few talks setting out the churches view of women...

    I am sure that if you were not a believer your would have no trouble seeing what I point out...read the quotes and get back to me and tell me that they are inoccent and that irradicating from the world old duffers who call folk love is a greater problem to address.

    Now if the church took a stand where it could admit that a big change is necessary we may get someplace...and as exchemist points out some are doing something...which is good and simply shows that there is a problem...ask your pastor or priest what to do about domestic violence and see how you like the advice...read later to get an incite.

    I hope you understand my fixation is because it is warranted, the quotes say so and the research on domestic violence sets out clearly the negative influence of the church results in violence and death...these facts need to be faced not treated with a casual glance and throw away comments as you have done.

    I leave you with something Bill Maher says about religion...if the pool has only one turd in it would you still swim in it...he then goes on to describe the multitude of turds that make up religion....its like a drug..it makes you feel good but you become oblivious to the damage you constantly suffer...why would you be in a club that has in its history more murders than any other group?

    For me I could be an Athiest for just that one turd..the contribution religion makes to the degrading of women and it's major roll in domestic violence and deaths...to me belonging to the church is as bad as belonging to the Nazi party and when challenged to say forget the bad things we gave the people their own car...And realise it was Christians who killed the Jews irrespective of what their political leaning was..driven by hatred spat from the pulpits for generations..Uganda massacre..do you know why..who called for murder from the pulpit? Look into it and realise your drug just ain't worth it.

    Please look into the domestic violence problem...one woman dies each week here at the hands of a partner or ex partner...and you wonder why I have a fixation...what are the figers in USA..find out and take a stand.

    Further in your research on domestic violence you will find that just as with child abuse the church manages the problem by ignoring it with priests etc counselling victims not to take action...their approach is to say know that God will intervene to stop it or will give you, the victim, strength to endure...that alone must get alarm bells ringing...and you now know only a very small percentage of the reasons why I am fixated and find it sad that rather than face the problem of our culture they choose to focus on what I say are much smaller matters...I know it's not nice that some folk are annoyed but really can't you see a bigger picture?

    Alex
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
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  5. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    I hear you, and appreciate you taking the time to post all of this. If nothing else Alex, you are very thorough with your opinions. lol When I'm not so sleepy, I'll offer some semblance of a reply.
     
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  7. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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  8. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Just part of it...
    The culprits were obvious: it was the menopause or the devil.

    Who else could be blamed, Peter screamed at his wife in nightly tirades, for her alleged insubordination, for her stupidity, her lack of sexual pliability, her refusal to join him on the 'Tornado' ride at a Queensland waterpark, her annoying friendship with a woman he called "Ratface"? For her sheer, complete failure as a woman?



    The abuse went on, day and night, as Sally bore a child, worked morning shifts at the local hospital and stayed up late pumping breast milk for her baby.

    She was deeply exhausted, depleted and worn.

    The night before Sally finally left her husband and the townhouse they lived in on Sydney's northern beaches he told her she was also failing her spiritual duties.

    "Your problem is you won't obey me. The Bible says you must obey me and you refuse," he yelled. "You are a failure as a wife, as a Christian, as a mother. You are an insubordinate piece of s**t."

    Sally, an executive assistant who had just turned 44, stared at him, worrying about whether her neighbours — or her sleeping daughter — could hear his roars through the thin walls.

    She knew what had "flicked his switch": the simple act of coming down to say goodnight, which he interpreted as a lack of willingness to have sex.

    Peter then opened his Bible and read out some verses:

    "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Saviour."
    Ephesians 5: 22-23

    Next was:

    "Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness I permit no woman to teach or have authority over a man; rather, she is to remain silent."
    1 Timothy 2: 11-12

    For years, Sally had believed that God wanted her to submit to her husband, and she did her best, bending to his will and working to pay the bills, despite the pain she was in.

    But on this night, she was done. The next morning, she packed up her bags, grabbed some clothes for her daughter and left, taking the little girl with her.

    She left everything else behind.

    Religion and domestic violence: the missing link
    When we speak of domestic violence, and the cultural factors that foment it, one crucial element missing from the discussion has been religion.

    While it is generally agreed that inequality between the sexes can foster and cultivate environments where men seek to control or abuse women, in Australia there has been very little public debate about how this might impact people in male-led congregations and religious communities, especially those where women are told to be silent and submit to male authority.

    In other countries, like the United States and United Kingdom, there has been extensive analysis. So why is Australia so behind on this issue?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!




    In the past couple of years, concern has been growing amongst those working with survivors of domestic violence about the role the Christian church of all denominations can either consciously or inadvertently play in allowing abusive men to continue abusing their wives.

    The questions are these: do abused women in church communities face challenges women outside them do not?

    Do perpetrators ever claim church teachings on male control excuse their abuse, or tell victims they must stay?

    Why have there been so few sermons on domestic violence? Why do so many women report that their ministers tell them to stay in violent marriages?

    Is the stigma surrounding divorce still too great, and unforgiving? Is this also a problem for the men who are abused by their wives — a minority but nonetheless an important group?

    And if the church is meant to be a place of refuge for the vulnerable, why is it that the victims are the ones who leave churches while the perpetrators remain?




    Is it true — as one Anglican bishop has claimed — that there are striking similarities to the church's failure to protect children from abuse, and that this next generation's reckoning will be about the failure in their ranks to protect women from domestic violence?

    A 12-month ABC News and 7.30 investigation involving dozens of interviews with survivors of domestic violence, counsellors, priests, psychologists and researchers from a range of Christian denominations — including Catholic, Anglican, Baptist, Pentecostal and Presbyterian — has discovered the answers to these questions will stun those who believe the church should protect the abused, not the abusers.

    'I felt that I was almost being raped'
    Sally met Peter when she was in her mid-30s, and had been praying for a husband. She wasn't instantly attracted to him but was charmed by the deluge of flowers and love letters he sent. She grew to believe she was meant to be with him.

    She overlooked the fact that she had to buy her own engagement ring and agreed to marry him not long after their meeting.

    Peter's personality changed on the first day of their honeymoon, when he yelled at her for sleeping in, and made plans to go fishing for days without her.

    Her bible study leader told her later that she looked like the saddest bride he had ever seen.

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    The abuse quickly escalated as Peter drank, gambled and demanded sex every second night, usually after having yelled at her for hours.

    She later wrote in a statement prepared for court: "If I refused, he would become incandescent with rage. It was easier to give in than argue. Those nights I felt that I was almost being raped."

    Once he forced her to have sex just three weeks after giving birth.

    Sally found little comfort in her Pentecostal church, which she had turned to repeatedly. Counsellors there simply advised her to forgive him. She also told her pastor her story, but no one followed it up.

    The violence mounted until one day her husband threw their three-year-old daughter across the room after the toddler accidentally bumped his leg.

    When she left Peter, Sally also left her church parish, feeling isolated and unwanted as a single mother.

    Ten years later, she is still shattered. She wishes she had heard just one sermon on domestic violence, or had one supportive ear.

    The Christian men more likely to assault their wives
    The fact that domestic violence occurs in church communities is well established. Queensland academic Dr Lynne Baker's 2010 book, Counselling Christian Women on How to Deal with Domestic Violence, cites a study of Anglican, Catholic and Uniting churches in Brisbane that found 22 per cent of perpetrators of domestic violence and abuse go to church regularly.

    But American research provides one important insight: men who attend church less often are most likely to abuse their wives. (Regular church attenders are less likely to commit acts of intimate partner violence.)

    Those who are often on the periphery, in other words, who sometimes float between parishes, or sit in the back pews. For these men, the rate of abuse committed is alarmingly high.

    As theology professor Steven Tracy wrote in 2008:

    It is widely accepted by abuse experts (and validated by numerous studies) that evangelical men who sporadically attend church are more likely than men of any other religious group (and more likely than secular men) to assault their wives."

     
  9. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    The problem as I see it, isn't with religion. If we agree that god, as described in the Bible, doesn't really exist - then this "God" didn't tell anybody to do anything. People are the problem, not religion. Religion is just a reflection of human culture.
     
  10. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    You no doubt must hold religious views as that is the only way I can think you could be so blinkered.

    What if the president of Mac Donalds had said anything like in those quotes..how many MacDonald buildings would be burnt down do you think?...come on now...

    Heck if the leader of another country said stuff like in those quotes the public would be calling for war...

    It would seem the accounts of situations outlining abuse you dont find compelling evidence that religion is indeed a huge part of the problem...did you read the quotes?

    Did you read the account re abuse?

    Moreover what makes up our culture if not religion and movies?

    Anyways thank you for posting but please read the quotes and go to that site and read the rest they have there...personally I think the problem is folk just can not accept the reality that is before them...I really thought when I put up those quotes just for a start tempers would heat up and some sort of indignation would swell up..so far nothing...yet have an old dear call someone luv...we get a response one could think would be more appropriate for those quotes...
    Alex
     
  11. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    OK one point..the quotes may not all be from the bible but if not it will take not time to produce endless evidence that indeed the bible treats women like crap.
    DMOE trying to make fine points can never take away the findings of various investigations that determine the problem I point out is real..very very real...

    But as usual rather than conceed your enemy could be right less do everything posiblecto hide his truth and get back to the happy little made up reality that we find so nice am comfortable...


    It is interesting that no one can see a problem with the church but old folk calling someone luv..in innocence..is so much worse...

    Please just read the last thing I posted put aside that I am right and you will die before you admit that....if you are not moved by the article then God himself could not change your minds.

    Alex
     
  12. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    The Bible is a Book!
    A Book that is written by men(?)!
    A Book that is Edited by
    men(?)!
    A Book that is printed, presented and interpreted (mostly!) by
    men(?)!

    Maybe your Post should read : DMOE trying to make fine points can never take away the findings of various investigations that determine the problem I point out is real..very very real...and it will take not time to produce endless evidence that indeed
    men(?) treat women like crap!

    Why not just skip all of this seemingly Mysoginistic, Sexist,
    dis•in•gen•u•ous BILLSHUT, Alex, and HONESTLY OPEN YOUR EYES TO THE FACT THAT IT IS men(?) THAT TREAT WOMEN LIKE CRAP !!!
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
  13. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Well I can't argue with the fact you point out that it is indeed men who treat women like crap..at least some men do...I am surprised you felt driven to raise that fact in such an odd way given I have been referring to domestic violence and specifically men killing present or past partners...does that not hint to you that perhaps my eyes are indeed open..how did you leave that out of your reality and upon what motivation would you completely ignore the glaring fact that I am somewhat aware that it is indeed men who treat women like crap...maybe you have trouble extending the killings by partners and ex partners to include " treat like crap"...it seems you are determined to ignore the research that is referred to in the link I posted and happy to find religion free of contribution to the domestic violence issue notwithstanding that the research has clearly identified there is a problem...you just can't extend any acceptance that my statements are correct and so now here you are pointing out the damn obvious as though that will deflect the issues I point to...so you disagree with expert findings simply to insert , for whatever reason, your version of reality... and you do it in such a polite manner free of any hint of animosity..no wonder I like you.

    Did you read the material on the influence of religion I posted?

    Alex
     
  14. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Do away with classifications in sport.
    Don’t have men’s events and women’s events.
    Let men and women compete equally.
    That way women can show us how it is they are equal with men.
    I think boxing should be the first sport to give women that opportunity
     
  15. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    Again...Why not just skip all of this seemingly Mysoginistic, Sexist, dis•in•gen•u•ous BILLSHUT, Alex?

    This "Religion" you Blame for mistreating, abusing and Killing of women was Created by men(?)...
    This "Religion" has been developed, furthered and Pushed by men(?)...
    This "Religion" is continued and Preached(mostly!) by men(?)...

    "Religion" does not mistreat women, men(?) mistreat women!!!
    "Religion" does not raise it's Fist to beat women, men(?) use their Fists to beat women!!!
    "Religion" does not Kill it's wife or ex-wife, men(?) kill their wives or ex-wives!!!

    No REAL MAN mistreats, abuses or kills women...Period!!!

    No REAL MAN would Blame a Book, a Movie or a Non-Existent Mythical Entity to condone mistreating, abusing or killing women...Period!!!

    men(?) write those books you rail against, men(?), make those movies you rail against, and Alex, you know that only men(?) refuse to take personal responsibility for their actions!!!

    Alex, there are LITERALLY billions of REAL MEN on this planet that practice various "Religions" that DO NOT and NEVER WOULD mistreat, abuse or kill women!!!
    You want to point to examples of men(?) who DO mistreat, abuse and kill women and you want to absolve these men(?) of any Personal Responsibility for their actions and simply blame "Religion"?

    So, go ahead, intentionally ignore or misread my Posts and continue to assert that I live in some "Invented Sustitute Reality".

    Meh...blame a Book...blame Hollywood...maybe that is all that a man(?) can do...?
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
  16. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Excellent idea.
    Women clearly would outdo men on a pound for pound basis as you get in boxing.
    Some of the girls in MMA have become excellent fighters.

    Alex
     
  17. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Here we have a great fight,
     
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  18. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Errr.. no! It’s not an excellent idea.
    It’s a horrible idea. Only in a godless society would this be allowed.
     
  19. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Do you not know the difference between adults and little children?
     
  20. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    Men should stop telling women what they’re capable of, what they should be doing, what they’re good at, etc.

    How funny that two men are debating this right in front of our eyes ...in this thread.
     
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  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Yep. Unfortunately we have a very long history of men telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies. For a long time men outright owned women - as slaves, as wives and daughters, as concubines etc. We are fortunately moving away from that, but vestiges remain.
     
  22. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    Yea, the exchange above reads like they’re talking about horse racing or something - “who ya gonna bet on, Bill?”

    That’s what James meant by “everyday sexism.” It’s insidious, but happens every day.
     
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Jan: Do away with classifications in sport. Don’t have men’s events and women’s events. Let men and women compete equally.
    Xelas: Excellent idea.
    Jan: Errr.. no! It’s not an excellent idea. It’s a horrible idea. Only in a godless society would this be allowed.

    Then you should talk to that horrible, godless Jan about his idea.
     
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