Discussion in 'Religion' started by Xelasnave.1947, Jan 12, 2021.
@ Jan Ardena
And how old are the women you speak of? Are they at "age of consent"?
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It depends how you classify submit, and obey.
I’ve no idea.
What is funny is that Christians are the least knowledgeable about scripture. .....Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
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As an atheist, there is no way you can know that.
There you go.
The average marrying age of women in scripture :
Puberty in girls
A girl's marrying age was between 12 - 13 years in those days and you are talking about informed consent?
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If the the age of consent is reduced to twelve in our culture, what would you say then?
Marriage doesn’t really mean anything if either partner is committing adultery. They may as well not be married as it makes no difference.
I think most rapists “hate” period.
In that scenario, would she have consented, even though she really doesn’t want to have sex?
If she didn’t consent, would the man have his way anyway, or would he accept her decision?
Do you think that they think Jesus Christ would act in that way, in an identical situation?
If they did, do you think they could find justification of that in the scripture. I think we both know the answer to that. So how can we call them “Christian”, as it is the duty of every Christian to follow his ways?
IMO, they aren’t Christians, and should not be regarded as such by theists, or anyone who knows the character of JC.
It is standard God-conscious understanding.
If you read about ancient Corinth, you will find that the religion that preceded Christianity was the worship of Aphrodite, a female deity. And women were priests and teachers at that time.
So there is a lot more Paul’s advice, than we know.
Also the Islamic religion before Mohammad, had completely decayed into chaos, where the people would practice evil, in the name of Allah.
I knew 2 men(both southerners) in the army who married 13 year old women.
Parties in California, Colorado, Kentucky, Louisiana, and Texas may get married at any age with parental consent. In Kentucky, the consent of a judge may also be needed and in Texas, marriage is not allowed under the age of 14 for males and 13 for females.
actually, Jan Ardena, my response was :
As in, I saw that Poem as "Fine words by an accomplished author"...which was ABOUT THE POEM.
So, yes Jan Ardena, your 10 words may indeed have "summed up the whole point and purpose of religion"!!!
However the quote had naught to do with "the whole point and purpose of religion".
Unless, of course, you want me to accept that you honestly BELIEVE that a man cannot OWN UP to accepting PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for his OWN actions and behaviour.
@ Jan Ardena
As I stated to you previously, I cannot honestly claim to be a Theist.
That being the case, I have to ask if you are, HONESTLY, a Theist yourself?
Also, what Religion* do you HONESTLY BELIEVE a man should allow to PROGRAM every facet, every department of his mind instead of assuming that rightful personal responsibility and programming it for himself?
* as in designate the said Religion - Catholicism ?, Judaism ?, Islam ?, ???
Return to the age of barbarism . Why do you think it was raised to begin with?
I wasn't paying attention when first I heard of that group-----I had thought that it was "pretty boys"-----oops
So it would seem.
It's a physiological response.
In the same fashion a woman can have an orgasm while she is being raped. Does not mean she wants it. It's just the human body's response to certain stimuli.
The same applies to a man. His penis can become erect whether he wants it to or not.
Not to mention a man can also be penetrated by objects against his will.
I mean, this is basic biology Jan.
Because they choose to.
The original text of what Wegs posted states this:
But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die.26But you shall do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no offense punishable by death. For this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor,27because he met her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her.
Notice the same words.. "Seizes and lies with her".
Before you start twisting yourself into a different shaped pretzel to try to explain how this is rape and the following passage is not.
Do you know the difference between what you are twisting yourself into a pretzel over and the passage I quoted?
In all the examples you are talking about to declare how they are apparently rape but the following passage I quoted in my previous post is not rape.. In Wegs' example and what you twisted yourself over... The man is only punished if the woman is owned by another man.. In other words, all previous examples where the rapist is punished, the woman is betrothed or married - owned by another man.
A virgin is not owned, married or betrothed in the passage I quoted. So in her instance, the man who seizes her and lies with her, ie, rapes her, has to marry her and take ownership of her.
And that's the part that you missed entirely in your bad faith excuses.
Here is the whole section in full:
 "If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. d So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
25 "But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. 26 But you shall do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no offense punishable by death. For this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor, 27 because he met her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her.
28 "If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.
23-24 - not rape. Note the different language to describe it.. "Meets with her in the city and lies with her" - ie they meet and have sex. Which implies consent.
25-29 - "seizes and lies with her" indicates rape... Grabs her by force and has sex with her... Clearly explains rape - regardless of how you are trying desperately to claim that it may not be.
The man is only punished in instances of rape if the woman is married or betrothed to another man.
If the woman is a virgin who is not betrothed, the man is not punished and the victim is forced to marry her rapist.
That's the significant part you completely missed in your pretzel twisting.
It's not that the verse I quoted shows an acceptance of rape.
It's that it views the woman as a commodity..
Ownership and anyone who takes away from another man is punished. If the woman is not owned (ie married or betrothed) and is raped, then she will simply have to marry the man who 'seized her and lay with her' - ie raped her.. After the rapist buys her off her father of course.
Wow that's ignorant. What's next? "She was wearing a sexy dress so I knew she wanted it?"
Why are you SHOUTING? Didn't you just get on my case for doing that?
Jan Ardena, Hypocrite in Chief.
Consent is not given when one is coerced or forced into it, Jan.
If she does not consent and he has sex with her, it's rape.
And just to reiterate..
Coercion and/or force does not amount to consent.
Just as consent is not deemed to be present if she is asleep or unconscious or incapacitated.
Islam did not exist prior to Muhammad.
Islam arose within the context of Late Antiquity. The second half of the sixth century saw political disorder in Arabia, and communication routes were no longer secure. Religious divisions played an important role in the crisis. Judaism became the dominant religion of the Himyarite Kingdom in Yemen after about 380, while Christianity took root in the Persian Gulf. There was also a yearning for a more "spiritual form of religion," and "the choice of religion increasingly became an individual rather than a collective issue." While some were reluctant to convert to a foreign faith, those faiths provided "the principal intellectual and spiritual reference points," and Jewish and Christian loanwords from Aramaic began to replace the old pagan vocabulary of Arabic throughout the peninsula. Hanif, "seekers," searched for a new religious outlook to replace polytheism, focusing on "the all-encompassing father god Allah whom they freely equated with the Jewish Yahweh and the Christian Jehovah." In their view, Mecca was originally dedicated to this one true religion, established by Abraham.
According to tradition, the Islamic prophet Muhammad was born in Mecca around the year 570. His family belonged to the Quraysh, which was the chief tribe of Mecca and a dominant force in western Arabia. To counter the effects of anarchy, they upheld the institution of "sacred months" when all violence was forbidden and travel was safe. The polytheistic Kaaba shrine in Mecca and the surrounding area was a popular pilgrimage destination, which had significant economic consequences for the city.
Most likely Muhammad was "intimately aware of Jewish belief and practices," and acquainted with the Hanif. Like the Hanif, Muhammad practiced Taḥannuth, spending time in seclusion at mount Hira and "turning away from paganism." When he was about forty years old he began receiving at mount Hira' what Muslims regard as divine revelations delivered through the angel Gabriel, which would later form the Quran. These inspirations urged him to proclaim a strict monotheistic faith, as the final expression of the prophetic tradition earlier codified in Judaism and Christianity; to warn his compatriots of the impending Judgement Day; and to castigate social injustices of his city. Muhammad's message won over a handful of faithful, but was met with increasing opposition from notables of Mecca. In 622, a few years after losing protection with the death of his influential uncle Abu Talib, Muhammad migrated to the city of Yathrib (subsequently called Medina) where he was joined by his followers. Later generations would count this event, known as the hijra, as the start of the Islamic era.
Explain how those six words describe the fine words by the accomplished author.
Why didn’t it?
That’s not what the quote said.
It spoke of reprogramming every facet and department of YOUR mind. You can’t do that if YOU are the mind. You can’t have your cake and eat it.
That is (or should be)the purpose of religion.
And the purpose of that is to realise the true self.
That is how we begin to love God.
How do you know that?
It’s not the same thing, and furthermore you have no clue at to whether what you say is true or not
That’s not what we’re discussing.
So all biology students know that if a women puts a gun to dudes head and orders him to have sex with her, he is going to get an immediate hard-on, because he his scared out of his wits.
And she is going to get her kicks while holding the gun to his head?
So if someone asks you to kill them, it’s okay in principle, because they consent?
No it’s not.
I put that into the concordance, and it came up with the original KJV transliteration.
The man is punished if he forces himself on a married woman. It went without saying in those times, that a married woman would not have sex outside of marriage. Obviously times have changed.
Unless it was witnessed, or otherwise known, there is no way of telling if he forced himself on an unmarried virgin. He is forced to marry her, as she has lost the chance of creating good off-spring.
The verse states that if it is known that he forced himself on her, he dies. She said s protected by the law.
I don’t see how your point follows on, and I bet you’re not going to explain why you think it does, because you’re incapable.
Separate names with a comma.