Religion and women.

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Xelasnave.1947, Jan 12, 2021.

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  1. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry Jan Ardena, but I cannot do that, simply because those those six words DO NOT describe those six words as fine words by the accomplished author.
    You know that.
    You know that I typed those six words to describe the Poem by Rudyard Kipling as "fine words by an accomplished author".
    Do you disagree, Jan Ardena?
    Is that Poem by Rudyard Kipling NOT a great example of of fine words by an accomplished author?

    The quote spoke NOTHING of "reprogramming", the word "reprogramming" is not even 'spoke of' in the quote.
    You know that.

    Do tell, Jan Ardena?
    Previously you Posted :
    So, you, Jan Ardena, CAN have your cake and eat it when it suits you?

    At any point in your Religion, Jan Ardena, will you realise your true self?
    At any point in your Religion, Jan Ardena, will you begin to love your God?
    At any point in your Religion, Jan Ardena, will you begin to love your God's other creations that realise their true selves?
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  3. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Bells...

    Regarding “Islam” in pre- Muhammad times.
    “Islam” literally means “submit to God”.
    What you’re referring to is the religious religion institute known as “Islam”.
    You’re correct the religious institute did not exist prior to Muhammad. But Islam itself has always existed
     
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  5. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Huh?

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    I’m not sure what you mean by “fine”.
    The dictionary describes “fine” as very good, or of high quality.
    So in effect you’re saying the words used by this accomplished author are very good. Okay, glad we sorted that out.
    Words are simply words DMOE. I don’t you how you distinguish between high quality words, and low quality one (if such things exist). Care to explain?
    You’re right it didn’t. But a little common sense should reveal to you that f you don’t program your mind, it is already programmed. This means that it needs to be reprogrammed.
    I mean he did say , and I paraphrase, if you don’t do it the world/ government, or whatever, will.
    No you can’t.

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    And I have no desire to explain it to you again.
    Yes.
    Yes,
    If you love God, you live all of God’s creatures.
    I even love you DMOE
     
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  7. Bells Staff Member

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    Because it's basic biology. And because I know more about this subject than you do.

    Physiological responses is common with rape victims, Jan. It's also why we end up with even more psychological scars afterwards, because of this prevailing belief, such as what you are spouting.

    We're not discussing rape?

    Wow, how very descriptive..

    Disturbingly so.

    No, Jan. It's about her manipulating him physically to get the response while she holds the gun to his head.

    I have to ask, what is wrong with you?

    Murder does not equate having consensual sex outside of marriage, Jan.

    It is the traditional text.

    And more twisting to excuse it.

    He rapes her, if she's not owned by any other man, he gets to marry his victim.

    Do you understand that this is wrong, yes?

    Do you understand that the notion of ownership of another person is wrong, yes?

    Do you understand that being forced to marry your rapist is wrong, yes?

    Instead of trying to find every single excuse under the sun, just, ooooohhh, I don't know, actually acknowledge that it is actually wrong and morally repugnant. You know, for the sake of actually coming across like a decent human being.

    Only if she is married or betrothed. If she is not, then she is forced to marry him. The text is clear.

    Stop making excuses.
     
  8. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    @Jan - Why are we going in circles with you about rape? Rape is always wrong. Always. Period. Suppose you found yourself in a situation where a man raped you, would you be going on for pages as you are?

    No blame should be placed on rape victims. If you had to sum up in one sentence what you’re trying to posit about rape, what would it be?
     
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  9. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    @ Jan Ardena

    I gave you the benefit of the doubt, Jan Ardena.

    I Posted in good faith...I Posted Honestly...

    You have repeatedly shown that YOU DO NOT!
     
  10. Bells Staff Member

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    I find his attempts to establish what constitutes a rape victim equally offensive.

    The entire 'is it really rape' schtick just shines through.
     
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Excellent point! In prison this is not an uncommon practice, but hey.....it's among criminals anyway, so who cares.
     
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    "If he gets an erection he must want to have sex with her"
    "If she decides to wear sexy clothes she must want to have sex with him"

    Equally invalid - and equally ignorant.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  13. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    Agreed. I’m not sure what he’s on about with regards to adultery, marriage and rape. As if there’s a connection between all three, and that somehow is the motivating factor in rape cases. Rapists can be married. Rapists sometimes rape their own wives. Rapists don’t exclusively rape women - although it’s typically a crime perpetrated by a man. Rape is often a crime whereby the guy knows his victim; the perp isn’t always a stranger lurking in a back alley waiting. Perhaps we’re assuming too much in that most people know this.
     
  14. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    I’m not going round in circles. I’m showing that the idea that religion/Christianity is not the cause of men abusing women.
    How come you’re not showing that? This is ultimately about belief in God. From an atheist perspective, if you believe in God, you are religious, if you are religious, you are okay with men abusing women. Do you see how it works?
    That is where this is going. So it is important to show that atheists are completely wrong. All they want to do, is do away with religion, by any means necessary, despite not having clue about religion, or God.

    Anyway I know Bells has an itchy trigger finger, and will most probably ban me.
    So I want to say to you, if you believe in God, stand up for your belief. Or will find your belief growing weaker, till one day you might just decide to stop. I hope you don’t. Look deeply into any scripture you find, and gain more insight, and understanding.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  15. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Okay. I can see where this is going, so I’ll leave it there.
    This seems to be a common analysis. Tell me what you think, if you like...

    In the case of an erection, stress and anxiety can interrupt how your brain sends messages to the penis to allow extra blood flow. Stress and anxiety about ED can also contribute to a cycle of ongoing ED. Experiencing ED can lead to behavioral changes that contribute to anxiety and incidences of ED.
    https://www.healthline.com/health/erectile-dysfunction-anxiety-stress

    I don’t know about the other men here, but I would think that some psycho woman slobbering frantically over my penis, holding a gun to my head, threatening to squeeze the trigger if I don’t get hard enough, for her to rape me, would kind of cause a bit of stress and anxiety.
    Please explain the biology, and, or the psychology that would bypass that.
    That is rape yes.
    But that’s not one woman holding a gun to your head.
    Of course multiple people can hold you down, or a woman could spike his drink, or a few women could hold down a guy. But that doesn’t mean he’s going to get hard while she gets her kicks.
    Which is what we were specifically talking about.
    Meaning what?
    I might be a rapist?
    I hope you’re not going there.
    So we’re back to this.
    So she holds a gun to his head, to the point where the dude is incapable of defending himself. What does she then do in order to get this stressed man to get an erection?
    You can always answer the question.
    Consent doesn’t necessarily make it right.
    My point is that in some cultures, adultery is classed as a heinous crime, and in other cultures it’s actually encouraged. Consent does not make it right.
    It’s not a transliteration of the original text.
    So where did it come from?
    It doesn’t say he raped her...

    If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
    29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekelsof silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

    Ive taken the liberty to look at what his meant by the bold statement, as that seems to be the only reference you could use to claim rape...
    That phrase is translated from the Hebrew word taphas, which is described as...

    1. to catch, handle, lay hold, take hold of, seize, wield
      1. (Qal)
        1. to lay hold of, seize, arrest, catch

        2. to grasp (in order to) wield, wield, use skilfully
      2. (Niphal) to be seized, be arrested, be caught, be taken, captured

      3. (Piel) to catch, grasp (with the hands)

    Now please explain how that verse means the woman has been raped, as opposed to consenting.

    Yes I understand that rape is wrong.
    Yes.
    Where is the talk of ownership, in that verse?
    Bethrothed means the person to whom one is to be married to. I’m not sure if that’s what you’re referring to.
    Yes.
    Do you understand that there is no mention of rape in that verse, according to the Hebrew lexicon.
    You’re the one claiming that verse is about that.
    I’m simply showing you that it is not. It’s simply two people having sex and getting caught.
    I already showed you what happens, in that same culture, to rapists. They get harsher punishment than rapists do today.
    It says it right there in black and white...

    But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:

    In this those days women who were betrothed or married, did not engage in sexual activity outside of marriage, they were upheld as chaste.
    Not looked down upon.
    Lol! There’s no need to make excuses.
    For those people it was all about progeny.
    Not like today where it is about independence.

    If you try and use today’s standard to make judgments on that culture, you will never understand it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  16. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    wegs..

    Adultery in that society, is seen in the same heinous light as we see rape today. Because no good progeny can come from adulterous people, spiritually speaking.
    Do you understand that?
    That is why God accepted Seth as Adam progeny, therefore able to continue the linage.
    I think you said it yourself, that the Bible is ultimately about Jesus Christ.
    But he had to come through a perfect linage.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    No, it's just the idea that religion/christianity was the cause for the bloodiest wars in history and the cruelest way of enforcing obedience.

    This was the Inquisition's Creed;
     
  18. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    ..........

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    You may smile as if I just proved your point. You do realize that witchcraft was especially favored by the inquisitors.

    Tie you up and throw you in the river. If you float you're a witch and get burned at the stake.
    If you sink and drown you are innocent and still dead.

    IMO, that's raping a woman of her innocence and her life.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  20. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    agree

    Religion may not be the cause, but it may be used as an excuse.
    As can the law---when I married my 1st wife, the laws in the state of Illinois allowed me "to beat my wife, within reason"
    Foolishly, I shared this tidbit with her, and without skipping a beat, she replied "not if you like waking up in the morning".
    I was fascinated by her brain and quick wit.(nice body too)
    .................................
    but, then again
    I was once ejected from a church by a red faced redneck southern baptist preacher
    who screamed at me
    "OUT OF MY CHURCH YOU SACRILEGIOUS SON OF A BITCH".
    (I wonder if he was a wife beater?)
     
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    A man goes out with his friends to a bar. An attractive woman talks to him. She comes on to him. He becomes aroused but knows that nothing will happen because he is married. She says "hey can you help me? I got a flat and I need some help." He says OK. They go outside and she sticks her hand in his pants and finds him aroused. He says "HEY! I'm married! Back off." She pulls out a gun and says "no worries, I'm forcing you, so it's not your fault. But we are having sex."

    "Lay hold on her" means he used physical force to keep her from fleeing. That's rape no matter how many mealy mouthed excuses you use.
    Which is exactly what you are trying to do.

    Your posts are pretty much never-ending strings of hypocrisy.
     
  22. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    To lay hold - : to take and hold (something) : to grab

    To force - coercion or compulsion, especially with the use or threat of violence.
     
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Right. If you lay hold of a woman so she can't get away, so you can have sex with her, that's rape.

    It is pretty scary that you don't get that.
     
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