Religion and women.

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Xelasnave.1947, Jan 12, 2021.

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  1. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    GOD I hate that word pair.
    (of course, my old gut, via visceral fat, might benefit from a little starving....?

    Meanwhile men and women will never be equal(as in the same)........ for that matter, no 2 men will be equal & no 2 women are equal ......

    midpoint on the continuum men and women are fundamentally different in musculature, bodies, and minds
    It has been my privilege to have known women who were smarter than me, stronger than me, faster than me........etc...etc...
    The left hand and the right hand ain't equal, but when they work together(especially without too much interference from the conscious mind) magic happens.
     
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  3. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Technically, I agree with you.
    There is no values, simply a biological transformation. Love is not necessary in that type of scenario. But that is not human reality.
    Man naturally heads over his wife and family, and his wife naturally understands that as she now has a child to develop. It is better if the man provides for his family, so that his wife can be a full time mother, for the sake of the child, and the structure in which the child is to develop.
    That’s what is meant by “submit”.
    Not that the woman must obey every demand. That is totalitarianism, and the family structure becomes less than ideal.
    So you would be okay with an emotional man, rather than a man who evaluated a situation before acting irrationally?
    Emotional ups and downs, is not what I was referring to. I meant just straight up emotion.
    Reacting irrationally to situations, becoming angry over situations that could be resolved without resorting to anger.
    Shedding tears for the loss of a loved one, is called grieving, it is a distinctive, and natural emotion. It doesn’t mean the man is an emotional man. After the shedding of tears, a logical man becomes restored, and does not carry that emotion into his everyday life.

    I think sexism is due to the man losing touch with his nature, and submitting to his own thoughts, and those that lend to his own understanding, which if governed by his emotions.
    There should be no reason for a man to feel threatened by his wife, even when if she is more successful in life, unless he is consumed in his thoughts governed by emotions, or the women figuratively beats him over the head with her success, making him feel useless. That, by the way, would help in creating more emotions.
    Emotions in men is destructive.
    One’s contribution to society is an extension of who they are. Every living being makes a contribution to society, we have no choice but to.
    Jeff Bezos’s contribution to society is greater than a starving artist, Bezos, can influence more people in one go, thereby changing the course of society. But it could just as easily be a woman who becomes a great influencer of society, we can take Beyoncé as an example.
    So that is not the value. The value is, IMO, the intention behind such great people. Ghandi and India, are both great in the sense that they have left a sizeable mark on the world, but they have vastly different intentions.
     
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  5. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    @ Jan - so, in other words - women don’t evaluate situations rationally? We’re basically emotional and “irrational?”

    What gives you value, would you say?
     
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  7. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    @ Jan - Regarding value - suppose you’re bed-ridden and can’t work, and need people to take care of you - would you lack value? Your idea of value seems contingent on if others validate your worth through accomplishments. (?) Suppose your SO needed to support you financially in this scenario, would you feel less masculine?

    Men and women in healthy relationships do complement one another with their differences - but, they’re equal in value, individually. That’s the only thing I’m trying to say. I’m curious as to your mindset on this, for curiosity’s sake.
     
  8. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    Jan, is your wonderfully outdated gender stereotyping due to your religious upbringing, or despite it?
     
  9. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    double post
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
  10. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    As far as doing stuff that requires me to be mobile, I would obviously lack value. But my human-ness would not lack any value, because I can still dedicate my life to God, or cling to an illusion my own making.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
  11. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    That's not what I'm saying.
    That sounds like I'm saying women are less than men, which is not where I'm going with this.

    My value is that I am a human being, as is yours, and all other human being.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
  12. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Dude, you've got to change that attitude.
     
  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    That's a starting point that many people use to gaslight women. "You're being irrational. But what should I expect? Women, amirite?"
     
  14. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    I agree.

    Whew, I'm glad to read that.

    I get what you're saying. So, would you say that you're subjectively traditionalist? Meaning, you're not advocating discriminating women in the workplace due to gender, or reinventing a patriarchal society, as a whole?

    To be honest, this strikes me as a solely societal construct: women should feel free to express their emotions whereas men must strive to be stoic. There's nothing wrong with men displaying vulnerability. There have been studies showing that high rates of suicide among men in the West can trace to men not expressing their sorrows, failures, and allowing themselves to be vulnerable. Living a stereotype can lead to depression.

    As a believer myself, my worth comes from God. But, even when I didn't follow faith, I knew that a person's worth isn't determined by the things he/she owns, or accomplishments. Society judges in that way, and it's worthwhile to have goals and pursuits, but it's not the ultimate. I've been asking you about value, because I think it's at the heart of our worldviews - how we see ourselves. How we form our identities. How we see ourselves and define a person's value often leads to how we treat others, and form prejudices.

    Yep.

    u mad, brah?

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    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
  15. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Well I am somewhat swayed by the research.

    You must know I have nothing against Christians and see them as victims of a terrible con job...I am not sure if the research has any recommendations but it would seem the first step would be for all Christians to see that the negative messages are best done away with ...and perhaps adopt a stand where forgiveness is not extended to wife bashers ... but at least don't just tell wives to pray and god will (a) stop the abuse or ( b) give the victim strength to endure.
    Alex
     
  16. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    To be honest I don't understand what you are saying.

    I guess I think both sides are not my idea of decency, truth etc.

    I dont like religion because it is invented and clearly caused much suffering..the right could be more left and the left more right in my view...just be honest and fair, and kind.

    Because the research says it is a factor..there are other things but heck religion is such a big thing let's fix it and see what's next...

    I think it is very bad to ignore that the bible treats women badly...it's like folk ignore that fact...edit the nonsense out I say...ok sensible folk take the good and ignore the bad...as they ignore it it's like it is not there right..so take it out they will never know its gone..and those who could be influenced by bad stuff won't have any authority in the bible...it will be gone...

    I guess it boils down to fix the bible...throw out nonsense..leave in decent messages..make it credible and up to date...have better morality in it.

    I don't care what you think of me actually it's your business...it's not about me....The research says what it says that's what you could address...have you read the research?

    I got out today and it was great...forgot guitar strings but got decent food saw my daughter and my Ex.

    I have thought about getting a fpv drone or glider...but really I have a few things to sort out...the trouble is I am old and a cripple and getting worse and I am not complaining or making excuses but everything is just so hard to do..like I am making a concrete pad for a shed..once it would be done before lunch..I have been working for two weeks and it's only half finished...But I chip away chip away and it will get done...I suppose the big problem at the moment is the heat and the rain...once I could take the heat..and in the van even with the air con it's still 94 degrees F ...time is running out and there is so much I want to do...

    That's why I feel guilty visiting here, it seems like a waste of time, ...sometimes it's the only contact I have with the world..there is the astronomy site but you can't talk about things like you can here.

    You know I thought my legs would be stuffed after shopping but they actually feel better...I think I got too run down ...I live very tuff and hard probably need to ease up.

    Goto go starting to feel very tired.

    Alex
     
  17. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    It's a serious question: is your wonderfully outdated gender stereotyping due to your religious upbringing, or despite it?
    I mean, your stereotyping is outdated (e.g. women = emotional, men = logical etc), and I'm curious as to where it comes from: your religious upbringing or, if your religious upbringing is not such that instils such stereotyping, something else.
     
  18. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Research isn’t the truth.
    Anything less than the truth is unknown.
    Well stop implying that Christian men are abusers because they are Christians. That is a lie, and you know it. Yet you accept foolishness.
    Leaving blatant lying, stealing, and hypocrisy to evil.
     
    dumbest man on earth and wegs like this.
  19. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    You are indulging in the same type of worldview/mindset, as the ones you call evil.
    All institutes are invented.
    But the purposes they uphold aren’t.
    Schools are invented, but absorbing informational knowledge for the purpose of obtaining knowledge, isn’t.
    You don’t understand the Bible.
    Your first Bible verse example is taken from
    Ephesians 5 22-23
    "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Saviour."

    Just two verses down you would have encountered this...

    25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved church, and gave himself for it;

    ...and three verses down from that you would have encountered this...

    28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

    Now if you were really being honest, you would have tried to gain some kind of understanding before blurting out your ignorant opinion.
    It at least calls for discussion.
    Just like you and I can see the evil that is taking place, I can see what you’re doing. But you are ultimately depriving yourself of truth, by believing these dishonest attempts to smear Christianity.
    The research is lies.
    Have you not witnessed the strategy of evil over this past year. The truth is within you. These lies are an attempt to keep you from that truth, by feeding you external bs which infiltrates the mind, making it difficult to separate truth from falsehood.
    Sounds tough.
    Look into the VR thing when you have chance.
    Or don’t. It’s up to you.
    But it is more than just fun and games.
    Like I said you would be able to exhibit, set up conference events, create discussion events, all in real time, with real people from all over the world. Heck, you can even watch movies in gigantic screens in virtual cinemas. For someone who is slowly losing their mobility, but have an interest in science, religion, and philosophy, and discussing with folk from all walks of life, in real time, from anywhere on the globe.. you could do a lot worse

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  20. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    I don’t see the point of paying a women less, for doing the same work, or undermining a person because she is a women.

    But you did kinda prove my point about being emotional when your response to my carefully worded (by my standard) response, when you said...

    ... “@ Jan - so, in other words - women don’t evaluate situations rationally? We’re basically emotional and “irrational?”

    Knowing how sensitive these subjects can be I actually avoided saying that. It’s a classic “Does my bum look big in this dress” scenario. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

    Women can evaluate, and be rational, just as a man can be emotional, and irrational. But in my experience, women always become emotional at some point, no matter how smart they are. But there’s nothing wrong with that unless it goes too far. When a man gets emotion, and irrational, it never ends good. It’s destructive. We have seen what happens when men get emotional and irrational. All hell breaks loose.
    You assuming that I am saying women are wrong or mistaken for expressing their emotions, and that it is wrong for men to be socially vulnerable.

    We now live in a society where women can be as emotional, even irrational, as they like. And men can be just as emotional as women. Now take a look at society.
    You knew because you have innate knowledge, that comes as standard with the human body suit you wear. But some would have you believe you have no innate knowledge. It is with that same knowledge we know that God Is, therefore we are.
    We can choose to yield to that, and expand our conscious awareness, or not to yield to it, and cover it over with information which distracts from the simple, innate truth within.

    Now is such a great time to look at ourselves, because we can see evil actually exists, not only from innate knowledge, but external knowledge as well. If evil is real, then goodness is real.
     
  21. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    ...

    deleted post, think I'm gonna sit this one out

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    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
  22. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Aaaaaand - there's the gaslighting.
     
  23. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    Yep. If you had posted my reply, he wouldn't have called you emotional.

    Everyday sexism....
     
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