Religion vs. Thought

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Bambi, Sep 29, 2001.

  1. tony1 Jesus is Lord Registered Senior Member

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    2,279
    *Originally posted by Xelios
    I'm sorry, but jumping off the Empire State building will physically kill you, no matter what you believe. Therefor you are not invincible.
    *

    Invincible actually means unconquerable, not invulnerable.

    I'd use a parachute if I were to jump off the ESB.
    I believe it would work.

    *Originally posted by Teg
    He believes that the hand of his god deflected a bullet. Classic delusion.
    *

    Delusion only to you.

    And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    (2 Thessalonians 2:11, KJV).

    I'm still here, unharmed by bullets.

    *How classic of you also tony to believe that somehow you and others like you are superior to others exactly like you for no apparent reason.*

    You actually think that Christians and atheists are exactly the same, except for some minor genetic stuff.
    Well, not so.
    God is on our side, not yours.
    God protects us, not you.
    God supplies our needs, not yours.

    *How does being immune to all outside forces bent upon destruction differ from invincibility.*

    For all practical purposes, it doesn't differ at all.
    Here's what you are thinking...
    tony1 says nothing hurts him
    Teg et al thinks, tony1 thinks he is Superman.

    Here is what is actually happening...
    tony1 says nothing hurts him
    God is protecting tony1

    If something were to get through to me, it might hurt me.
    The point is that they don't get through.
    Of course, since you don't believe in God, it looks to you exactly like I'm saying that nothing is protecting me.

    *For something to pass the truth test it must be accepted by the majority of people and even then may it be looked at in skepticism. How does one deem their issue true when he cannot agree with the very similar "truth" of others.*

    According to that, if you could get a bunch of zeroes together to agree that the moon is made of green cheese, then the moon is made of green cheese.
    Riiight.

    Just for starters, the truth is NEVER accepted by the majority of people.

    Proof?
    "The fact that you can dupe many people does not make what you say true."---Teg
     
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  3. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    Up in the sky....

    It's a plane!!, faster than a speeding locomotive, can jump buildings in a single bounce, "can quote the bible in a split second" it's SUPER TONY!!

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  5. Teg Unknown Citizen Registered Senior Member

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    Tony1

    I see you are so daft as to not know to the reference that I make referencing your original statement.

    I was referring to your distinction between religious individuals and believers. You knew what I was talking about, bad form tony.

    First you claim invincibility and now you take it back, which is it?

    I don't claim to have absolute truths, that's your delusion, tony.

    You took a statement out of context, classic tony behavior. I said
    When referring to the duping process I strictly meant the use of religion to cloud actual thought. I notice how you like to quote, perhaps try quoting my actual statement. You might be taken more seriously. Also try not to fall back on the bible, it only shows your limitations.

    Do you realize how you sound? Only you hold the truth and cannot be harmed by bullets. My sanity is not in question.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2001
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  7. tony1 Jesus is Lord Registered Senior Member

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    Re: Tony1

    *Originally posted by Teg
    I was referring to your distinction between religious individuals and believers. You knew what I was talking about, bad form tony.
    *

    How is a religous individual, such as an atheist, different from an atheist?

    *First you claim invincibility and now you take it back, which is it?*

    I'm not taking it back.
    You're applying the word in a sense that is it doesn't have.

    *I don't claim to have absolute truths, that's your delusion, tony.*

    1. I'm deluded in agreeing that you don't have absolute truths?
    2. I'm deluded in thinking there are absolute truths?
    3. I'm deluded in thinking someone can know absolute truths?

    *When referring to the duping process I strictly meant the use of religion to cloud actual thought.*

    So did I.
    Note Cainxinth's statement in one of the "tony pisses me off" threads.
    To him, and to every scientist, science text books are the holy books.
    By extension, science is a religion, which it is.
    And it does cloud actual thought, as in the theory of evolution.

    *Also try not to fall back on the bible, it only shows your limitations.*

    You're right, I'm not God.
    But try not to fall back on science textbooks, it not only shows your limitations, it shows the limitations of the texts themselves, along with the entire scientific method.

    *Do you realize how you sound? Only you hold the truth and cannot be harmed by bullets. My sanity is not in question.*

    I'm not the only one with the truth.
    Besides, there is only one group of people who's sanity is not in question: those who are insane.
    Are you a member of that group?
     
  8. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    9,199
    Cupid,

    So, returning to the subject at hand.

    So someone suspects that they are about to die in battle, what would they pray for I wonder? Are you seriously trying to imply that at some point in their prayers they are NOT going to ask for their own survival? If they are Christian then I suspect they are going to be admitting their sins and asking for forgiveness and as rapidly as they can think. And then of course it will be, please don’t let me die; please don’t let me die, all of which screams for personal survival, either in this life or the next.

    So what else would they be praying for at such a time? That aunt Gertrudes’s cakes don’t burn again like they did last week?

    Come on be serious, they will be begging for their lives as fervently as they have never prayed before. So can you provide a BELIEVABLE, alternative.

    Cris
     
  9. Xelios We're setting you adrift idiot Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,447
    Come on Tony! For once try to see around the small loopholes in statements and look at the big picture! I don't care what invincible actually means, you and I both know what my statement was saying. Obviously if you take a parachute with you you will survive, I was speaking of jumping off and hitting the ground at terminal velocity. I'm sure you knew that too, but you chose to pick apart my statement again and reply with some smart alleck remark.
    Maybe that's because you've never been shot at? And if you have, and it missed, that's all it did. Miss. I don't think some mighty invisible force came down from heaven and pushed the bullet away from you.
    Oh really? I thought God goes after lost sheep from his flock, not leave them to die. But maybe that part of the Bible is wrong, just because it doesn't suit your arguement at the moment...
    So what you're saying is the consequences of Eve's choice concerning the apple don't apply to you? I wonder what God has to say about that?
     
  10. Teg Unknown Citizen Registered Senior Member

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    672
    Tony1

    That sounds right to me!

    Now you are just whining about your lost argument.

    With one big difference, it can change. Because of this factor you have made a false statement.

    You see how easy it is?

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    You are superimposing the limits of the bible onto textbooks that update every few years. Science texts are expandable documents ready to shift with new discoveries. When was the last update to the bible? 1900 years ago!!! No wonder it is limited. People that long ago thought the sun orbited the Earth and that we were alone. It is easy to see how their fearful tendencies came about.
     
  11. blonde_cupid Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    427
    Cris,

    ***So what else would they be praying for at such a time? That aunt Gertrudes’s cakes don’t burn again like they did last week?

    Come on be serious, they will be begging for their lives as fervently as they have never prayed before. So can you provide a BELIEVABLE, alternative.***

    I think so.

    "Hey, get out of here!" one of the pilots could be heard yelling as the hijackers entered the cockpit at 9:28 am. The captain and first officer were then stabbed, most likely fatally, and dragged into first class. The head hijacker took over the controls and announced that there was a bomb on the plane as the remaining passengers and crew were herded to the back of the plane. The nearest hijacker-guard stood about 40 feet away.

    For the last 20 minutes, before the plane crashed into a rural area in Pennsylvania, passengers and crew members aboard United Airlines Flight 93 who had been herded to the rear of the plane, made 26 phone calls to relatives, friends and emergency services. The passengers and crew got word that three other planes had already been used as guided missiles to hit heavily-populated buildings which housed thousands of their fellow citizens earlier that workday. The people who lost their lives in those other buildings were mostly ordinary civilians like themselves. Athough the passengers were not members of the armed services, they decided to go into battle against the enemy - the hijackers. Friends, relatives and emergency service personnel on the receiving ends of those phone calls all tell independent but similar stories.

    Having come to the conclusion that they were most likely going to die, the callers were understandably nervous, but calm. They needed to do something to stop the plane before it reached its intended target. They planned their attack despite the pleading from at least one family member who, distraught at the thought of the loss of their loved-one's life, begged them to just sit still and be quiet. The passengers could be heard saying the Lord's Prayer as a group (which, in case you are not familiar with it, is not a prayer in which one begs for their life). Family, friends and emergency services personnel who were still listening on the other end of the phone lines joined in prayer with them. Some passengers said their their final, love-filled goodbyes to their families and friends and hung up.

    Passenger Jeremy Glick was still on the phone with his father-in-law, passenger Todd Beamer was still on the phone with an emergency services supervisor named Lisa Jefferson and flight attendant Sandra Bradshaw was still on the phone with her husband. According to those who were listening, the following were their final words:

    "You ready?"

    "Yeah."

    "O.K. Let's roll."

    "Everyone's running to first class. I've got to go. Bye."

    They were believers, Cris. They were ordinary citizen believers, armed only with hot water, plastic butter knives and the strength of the grace of God* which they derived through prayer - who went to war with the enemy. Believers who knew that they were about to die. They were not begging for their lives, Cris. They were understandably nervous, but at peace with themselves, their families and their friends. Renewed with the strength of the grace of God* through prayer, these people of faith took action so that no more of their fellow citizens would have to suffer such a horrendous death. They bravely took the last action that they would take in their lives - the act of willingly giving their own lives to save the lives of their fellow citizens.

    These passengers were ordinary, courageous, citizens of faith, Cris. Heroes.

    Not cowards as you seem intent on painting them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2001
  12. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    4,197
    Good observation BC.

    However given light of what happened 9/11 on that plane, even men of non-faith would have done the same. But you've got to realize something BC, athiests are a minorty! most of the citizenship in every nation is theistically inclined, others are either "closet atheists" or agnostics.

    I don't think the brave issue, has anything to do with creed, but with the individual persona.

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    When some of my co-workers knew I was an atheist, they used the same example of the "fox-hole" in the trenches of war!, execept this time, the "atheist" was supposedly the one praying for god to forgive him, that he would change his evil ways. I simply said to him "exactly! it is fear of death that drives men to religious believes" Then I concluded that the guy in their example became dillusional!.

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    BC I think that to be brave is upon oneself no matter what his creed may be.

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  13. blonde_cupid Registered Senior Member

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    Godless,

    Thanks.

    ***BC I think that to be brave is upon oneself no matter what his creed may be.***

    Well, do you agree with Cris that prayer is an avenue for cowards?

    It is Cris' theory which I was refuting, that's why I ask.
     
  14. Teg Unknown Citizen Registered Senior Member

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    672
    Although we may be a minority, I do not believe it such a small miority as the statistics might proclaim. There are many people who visit churches for social reasons and in at least my community not many churches exist. It is assumed that the majority are church-goers but after some good estimation that seems impossible. There are simply not enough churches to house the majority of this town. I think it is simply assumed that people are of faith because they say the right words and have the connections. Statistitions would tell you that all politicians are religious. They wwould be wrong: think of how easy it would be for people so accustomed to lying to tell another without regret. The evidence lies herein: abortion is legal. I can think of no religious institution that accepts abortion.
     
  15. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    9,199
    BC,

    Nice story. From my understanding of the incident I was led to believe there was much less known detail than you have recited. But lets analyze the story more closely.

    You say ‘the passengers’, do you really mean ALL passengers? You can’t know that so here you are exaggerating the truth to suit your desired conclusion. At best it would be some passengers since it seems unlikely that 100% would be Christian. Even just a minority of the passengers reciting clearly above the silence of others would be likely to be heard over phones.

    Why the lord’s prayer? From what I have seen of part-time believers is that they never normally pray except in a church and the lord’s prayer is the only one they have any chance of remembering because that is usually always said in churches.

    For example I know the lord’s prayer simply because I had to recite it every day of my school life for 12 years.

    On this basis it would seem reasonable to conclude that many if not most were not regular church-goers or committed believers. In other words they were normal people with the usual bravery needed for every-day survival, they would depend on their own abilities rather than fully trust to the supernatural. A recited prayer here is clearly not begging for one’s life, but is more like ‘we have nothing to lose, let’s see if there is a god and whether he will help us as well’.

    In a traditionally Christian dominated society where most people do not pay much attention to religion except at times of weddings or funeral’s then many passengers might well consider that when faced with an impending disaster that prayer might be the appropriate action to take. Once the prayers are over and they leave the church regular normal life takes over. Religion can be safely left behind until the next time they have to visit a church.

    Perhaps some were believers, but you haven’t established that they all were, as you want us to believe. I suspect that most weren’t strong believers and retained significant strength in their own human courage rather than have any real expectations of a supernatural force.

    The other key issue here is that the passengers are in a group. The psychology of a group is vastly different to that of an individual. They must also have been very aware that they outnumbered the hijackers and that the hijacker’s weapons were not particularly menacing. Most people will follow a leader and when there is sufficient momentum then individual courage becomes almost unimportant. The adrenalin and the camaraderie of a group will inspire people to do many things they would not dare do by themselves.

    It was not the inspiration of an imaginary god that made them react but the sheer momentum of a very focused and courageous group who from instinct were about to fight for their survival or for the survival of their species. Evolutionary theory works very well here.

    You haven’t established they were all believers and you haven’t established the depth of their beliefs if they did believe. And they didn’t know they were about to die. All they suspected was that if they didn’t act then they might probably die. Their hope in acting as a group must have been because if they didn’t then it looked like they would surely die. Basic statistics - do nothing and die or do something and hope you might survive. With enormous credit to these individuals they took the only rational action that was open to them: A small but finite possibility that they might survive if they acted. There was no certainty about anything when they began their struggle, and certainly no certainty that they were about to die.

    Fortunately, they realized that it was time for action and not for prayer. Wouldn’t truly indoctrinated believers have just sat quietly in the belief that if god wanted them to die then there was nothing they could do about it and if they were to live then they would be equally in god’s hands? I have met many Christians who take that infuriating line.

    Yes, normal, healthy courageous people.

    Well no not really. Any verse of inspiration, or song would have had the same effect on a group about to take action. Soldiers usually have some sort of chant to reinforce the effectiveness and courage of group psychology. The lord’s prayer may well had the same effect, but note that the prayer was not a personal prayer it was simply something that reinforced the togetherness of the group. A dose of whisky all round might have had a similar effect, and I suspect many had something similar available.

    That isn’t accurate. Again you are placing meaning in the story from the knowledge of hindsight. They bravely took action, yes, but they had no certainty that they were going to die as a result. I’m sure most would have held a lot of hope that they themselves would survive.

    If they were truly committed Christians then you might have a point but you haven’t proved your point. And the psychology of a group is fundamentally different to that of an individual.

    Heroes? Most certainly. Real Blind Faith Christians? The statistics and evidence is heavily against you.

    You need to show how a truly committed believer, as an individual would react when faced with near certainty of impending death. That was the original issue.

    Cris
     
  16. Teg Unknown Citizen Registered Senior Member

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    672
    Ah, of course: believers

    And with the courage of god the terrorists took control of the plane. Seeing that they would be unable to complete their divine work they sacrificed themselves and praised Allah on the way down. Just thought that out of fairness we should look at religious influence in both situations. Don't tell me Christians are better than that. Two inquisitions, the enslavement of populations to build religious establishment, and a crusade. Secular or non-Secular, both have heroes and villians.

    Whether religion grants courage is a precarious argument. Though it does remove fear this can be just as bad as it is good. Think how easy it would be to comit hateful acts only to turn around, begging forgiveness. This is similar to Tony1's statement about how he is immune to bullets.
     
  17. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    9,199
    Teg,

    Yup I almost forgot about that balance.

    But you remind me of a valid point and BC too.

    We glibly talk here about believers and non-believers, but the choice is not a clear black or white. It must be obvious to all that there are depths of belief and I intimated at that in my post to BC.

    For believers: On one hand we have the extremist, the fanatic, who typically takes a literal and very narrow stance. And at the other end we have the person who thinks they believe but it would not take much to move them the other way.

    For non-believers: If someone accepts the atheist label then they have probably made a decision, and the strong atheist is someone who believes they know there are no gods, but in-between there are decreasing levels of doubt until you reach the – I dunno it’s all just very confusing (sometimes called an agnostic).

    But where does that leave us with the courage issue. My original point was based on a specific direct observation by my father, but that view was not comprehensive. Do I really mean to say that ALL Christians are cowards, no of course not?

    If you consider the truly blind-faith believer, the almost fanatic, then I would see them as foolishly fatalistic. The attitude that God will save me if that is his wish and there is nothing I can do to prevent it. It is these attitudes that I have always felt represent the truly immoral aspect of religion. It discourages people from defending and fighting for themselves, and for struggling to build a better life. Such attitudes at odds with human progress. Fortunately I think these extremists are few but I suspect there is an element of this attitude in all believers.

    The next type of believer is the one who has a strong belief but has mild doubts. And I think it is this category of believer that when faced with real danger and aware that death is all around will be inadequately prepared to comes to terms with death. Here fear may well take control and technically cowardice will result. I think there are more in this category than the fanatics.

    The next type of believer represents a large portion of Christians. They have a real belief but are also well grounded in practical life. They would be able to separate the religious aspects of their life from the real aspects. These people will have enough rationality that they will indeed show courage in the face of death and will not depend on the supernatural for help but merely hope that god will see them through. They will be able to focus on issues at hand and would probably pray in silence or out of sight when they can.

    He next type of believer is the one who would put their mild beliefs to onside until the war is over, for the most part anyway. These are probably the bulk of what we loosely call Christians. Those that visit a church at weddings and funerals only.

    blonde_cupid, I’d actually welcome your comments on my views here as I think I am being accurate and impartial.

    Cris
     
  18. Xelios We're setting you adrift idiot Registered Senior Member

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    Then I suppose I'm an atheist. There is simply nothing in the universe to suggest intelligent design other than the Bible so why try to make it look that way? To me, religion was simply a way for our ancestors to make sense of the world they lived in that has gotten out of hand in recent times.

    I don't consider myself to be a pure atheist though, I am always open to new ideas or evidences. But for the time being I've decided there's just simply no need to use a supernatural being to explain the universe. IMO of course...
     
  19. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,199
    Xelios,

    I hope I can help you a little.

    Theist = one who has belief in a god.

    Atheist = one who has no belief in a god.

    By saying you have no need to use supernatural explanations for the universe you are in effect saying you have no belief in a god. That is pure atheism.

    I think what you mean by a pure atheist is one who BELIEVES that there is no god. Otherwise known as strong atheism, and that is a more rare case and is largely untypical, unless you listen to religious propaganda.

    If you have no belief in a god because you can see no reason to believe otherwise, then great, you’ve joined the vast bulk of atheists who think the same way.

    By saying you don’t believe because no one has shown you any reason to believe is both healthy and means you remain open to new ideas and alternative views that might have more evidence and maybe proofs to support them.

    If you are uncomfortable with the atheist label then freethinker or skeptic would also fit quite well. But really there are only two groups when it comes to theism – either (1) you believe, which means you are a theist, or (2) you don’t believe or have doubts, in which case you are atheist. What type of atheism you choose is up to you but strong atheism is a more difficult route to justify.

    Cris
     
  20. blonde_cupid Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    427
    Cris,

    Hello. I just came by to ask you some questions about some of the terms you used in your analysis, however, I see that you have defined some terms above. I'll need some time to digest the new information. But... I'll be back. It might not be until after Christmas, though.

    (I saw in another post that Christmas is not one of your favorite times of the year. Hope you have something special planned, though.)

    Try not to be too bah-humbuggy!

    Cheers!
     
  21. Teg Unknown Citizen Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    672
    Cris

    You bring up a good issue. Everybody wants to cloud their belief in some term such as deist or agnostic. Many people fall under one of the two categories. These can often be disguised as skeptical or freethinking positions, but when push comes to shove they are believers. They are just less- willing to admit their belief to others or themselves.

    It is as simple as you have explained.
     
  22. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,199
    blonde_cupid,

    Ok no problem, I look forward to it.

    Enjoy your holiday break.

    Best regards
    Cris
     
  23. tony1 Jesus is Lord Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,279
    *Originally posted by Cris
    they will be begging for their lives as fervently as they have never prayed before.
    *

    Cris, you definitely have a knack for getting to the heart of a matter.

    However, if they are begging for their lives, they will be begging as they've never begged before.
    Prayer is another thing.
    If they'd prayed, they would know that they were in no danger.

    Since they're begging, it is practically proof positive that they didn't believe that God would save them.
    Without that faith, begging doesn't count for anything.
    Actually, begging doesn't count for anything, anyway.

    *Originally posted by Xelios
    Obviously if you take a parachute with you you will survive, I was speaking of jumping off and hitting the ground at terminal velocity.
    *

    There are a whole big bunch of such "obvious" things in Christianity.

    Why would I be jumping off the ESB without a parachute in the first place?

    *And if you have, and it missed, that's all it did. Miss. I don't think some mighty invisible force came down from heaven and pushed the bullet away from you.*

    Who said that is how it works?
    Bullets hit some people and they miss me.
    Oddly enough, I'm satisfied with that.

    *I thought God goes after lost sheep from his flock, not leave them to die.*

    Good point.
    What do you do when God comes after you to save you?

    *So what you're saying is the consequences of Eve's choice concerning the apple don't apply to you? I wonder what God has to say about that?*

    Another excellent point!!
    Doesn't apply anymore.
    I'm glad you asked what God would say about that...

    For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    (Romans 5:17, KJV).

    See how both sides of the issue are handled in a single verse?

    *Originally posted by Teg
    That sounds right to me!
    *

    It would, but have you considered the corollary to that?
    If no one can know absolute truths, then neither can you.
    What are you planning to know instead?
    Absolute garbage?

    *With one big difference, it can change. Because of this factor you have made a false statement.*

    So, science is a changeable religion.
    That's worse, since you'll never know what's going on.
    You'll always be two minutes behind the times.

    *You see how easy it is?*

    Sure.
    I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
    (Psalms 82:6, KJV).

    Looks like you're agreeing with the Bible, though.

    *You are superimposing the limits of the bible onto textbooks that update every few years.*

    How will you ever know that you have current information?
    At least the Bible is always current.

    *Although we may be a minority, I do not believe it such a small miority as the statistics might proclaim.*

    Actually, you're probably in the majority.
    Churches are full of atheists.
    Mind you, such churches are usually pretty lame in their preaching.

    *Originally posted by Cris
    I have met many Christians who take that infuriating line.
    *

    I've met people like that, too.
    Mind you, I have rarely seen any need to call them Christians.
    Of course, you have a point that you are making, so carry on.

    *Originally posted by Teg
    Two inquisitions, the enslavement of populations to build religious establishment, and a crusade.
    *

    Sounds pretty religious to me.
    What does all that have to do with Christianity?

    *Originally posted by Cris
    Theist = one who has belief in a god.

    Atheist = one who has no belief in a god.
    *

    This is my favorite example of wordplay.

    The truth is that if a theist is one who believes in God, then an atheist is the opposite.
    IOW, an atheist is one who believes in no God.
    "ist" means adherent to a set of beliefs.
    To convince us of another definition, one would have to come up with another word that doesn't let the cat out of the bag.
     

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