Request for a four-year old review of "We should bomb China" thread

Discussion in 'SF Open Government' started by Billy T, Jun 3, 2012.

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  1. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    I agree completely. China is seeking to improve its power and influence in the world. Any damage to US and EU is an unavoidable consequence, not the driving purpose of Chinese policy.

    It is much like the US has forced interest rates on the 10 year bonds down to 60+ year lows* trying to stimulate the economy. US is not trying to hurt other nations with "exported inflation" and "currency wars" - those are just unavoidable consequences.

    What China wants is the privilege that the US has enjoyed for several decades. Namely having the RBM become the main currency central banks (and others) hold their reserves in. This has allowed the US to pay for much of the goods and services it imports with printed paper, not exports of real goods and services.

    * Recently (last few days) it dipped to less than 1.5% !! (i.e. in real terms, you must pay the government to take your money!)

    Perhaps, but that does not reduce the damage done even if it occurs only as an "unavoidable consequence." As they say: " The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

    While I agree that it is not with malice towards the West that Chinese act, I also think that should Western economies sink into deep long-lasting depression (when China no longer needs them as customers and has used most of the dollars in its reserves to buy in long term delivery contracts oil, minerals, farms etc.) that China will even shed a tear over the disparate conditions in the West. For why I believe that, read: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2668027&postcount=358
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2012
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  3. elte Valued Senior Member

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    Indeed we mustn't forget about the law of unintended consequences!
     
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  5. Kittamaru Giving up this insanity for Lent - back ~ 4/15 Staff Member

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    Wait... Billy, the infraction is expired, and thus doesn't do anything at this point anyway... not sure what's going on here 0o'
     
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  7. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    I told why in the OP. I.e.
    I.e. Every time I click on “User CP” tab to see if new posts by others have been made in my active threads, I see:

    Post ………………...........Date ……..….……………Expires…..Points …....Reason …..…………Posted By
    A political question:... 08-22-10 07:40 AM … Expired …0 …Inappropriate Language …James R

    It would not be so annoying if the reason given for the warning were accurate such a “Objectionable Subject” and not totally false. (I never use “Inappropriate language” – that is not my style. To say I do, is a slight slur on my character.) Four years of this false claim about me is long enough - Remove it James.

    Do you (Kittamaru) see my point?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2012
  8. Kittamaru Giving up this insanity for Lent - back ~ 4/15 Staff Member

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    Ah, er, I think some clarification on the infraction system is in order...

    When issuing an infraction, the forum is setup with the following "reasons" for the infraction:

    Reason | Number of "points" | Length Infraction Stands

    Flaming 1 4 Month(s)
    Hate speech 1 4 Month(s)
    Inappropriate Language 1 4 Month(s)
    Insulted Other Member(s) 1 4 Month(s)
    Off-Topic Posting 1 4 Month(s)
    Posting Violent, Abusive or Pornographic Content 1 4 Month(s)
    Spammed Advertisements 1 4 Month(s)
    Trolling / Meaningless Post Content 1 4 Month(s)

    Now, there is of course the ability to write a deeper explanation that can be viewed by (I believe) the receiver of said infraction and the moderation/admin staff... but as far as I'm aware, there is no method (at present) for a "custom" infraction to be given.

    Thus, Inappropriate Language may have been as accurate a "reason" as could be used.

    Now, granted, I could be entirely wrong on this (this is just how I've seen/used the infraction system thus far) - a more experienced mod, super mod, or admin would be able to explain this better

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    None the less, as James issued the infraction, removing it is at his sole discretion
     
  9. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Don´t think US´s pre-emptive strikes are only “non-judicial” killing of some “bad guys” including at least one US citizen. They include modified power supplies that explode killing who ever happens to be near but most importantly the development of the cyber warfare Stuxnet worm attacks on Iran. Justified by the claim, not only made with no support just like the "Saddam had WMDs" claim was, but actually refuted by the IAEC´s on site investigations.

    Again the real motivation for this hostile action is oil related - the soon to open Iranian oil bourse – selling oil for other than dollars. Even with the sanctions and US pressure on third parties, Iran is producing 500,000 barrels of oil per day 49% of which goes to China, and much to India, which just received 15 billion dollars from Japan to pay with.

    There is a huge and growing barter trade for Iran´s oil. For example, tea is central to meals in Iran and India supplies it by the boat loads for oil, etc. The whole US economy hangs on the preservation of the PetroDollar system and the associated re-cycling of these dollars to buy US treasury bonds. That is why, in self defense, the US is making both covert and open war against Iran, but not yet sending the Israeli fighter bombers in with covering support from the two US carrier groups now in or near the St. of Hormuz. Here is part of what the NY Times has just printed:

    “…Obama accelerated attacks related to an effort begun by the George W. Bush administration. The Stuxnet worm, long rumored to have been developed by Israel or the U.S., escaped from Iranian computers in mid-2010 and compromised computers across the Internet. Obama considered shutting down the cyber attacks after Stuxnet began compromising other computers, but decided to continue with the program, according to the Times. …

    The report that the U.S. and Israel were behind the Stuxnet attack didn't surprise Snorre Fagerland, senior virus analyst with Norman, an IT security vendor in Lysaker, Norway. The Stuxnet worm was "orders of magnitude" more complex and sophisticated than previous cyberattacks, he said, and the creation of the malware would have needed significant resources. It would have taken a team of 10 to 20 people to write Stuxnet, Fagerland said.

    The report of U.S. involvement may lead to an increase in cyberattacks, with other countries stepping up their offensive cyber capabilities, Fagerland said. "It raises the stakes," he said. "That will cause others to think, 'They're doing it, so why shouldn't we?'"
    Obama raised concerns that the Stuxnet program, code-named Olympic Games, would embolden other countries, terrorists and hackers to use similar attacks, but concluded that the U.S. had no other options available against* Iran, the Times story said. …”

    This quote from; http://www.computerworld.com/s/arti...tacks_on_Iran?source=CTWNLE_nlt_pm_2012-06-01

    * On difference between "intentionally against" and "unintended consequences":

    For even more details on the Stuxnet program, see: http://blogs.computerworld.com/2025..._against_iran?source=CTWNLE_nlt_pm_2012-06-01 including:

    “…"In the summer of 2010, ... it became clear that the worm, which was never supposed to leave the Natanz machines, had broken free, like a zoo animal that found the keys to the cage." Sanger's sources claimed it was due to Israeli "going too far" and modifying the code that broke loose after a computer was hooked to the Internet and was then "replicating itself all around the world."

    Some officials want to use cyber weapons to "disrupt Chinese military plans" and for more aggressive cyber attacks against North Korea, forces in Syria, and Qaeda operations around the world, but President Obama is concerned about the risks. The USA's infrastructure depends upon computer systems, exploitable SCADA systems, and is vulnerable to attack. Sanger reported, "It is only a matter of time, most experts believe, before it becomes the target of the same kind of weapon that the Americans have used, secretly, against Iran." …”

    Billy T comment: "What goes around, comes around" & Biblically: "As yea sow, so shall yea reap."

    PS to Kittamaru Perhaps you are correct that James could only chose one of the reasons you listed. (I doubt that as James has a great deal of power.) If, however, even he is so restricted then a better choice would have been: "Posting Violent, Abusive or Pornographic Content"
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2012
  10. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Was there supposed to be some kind of moderation issue relevant to SFOG in here somewhere? Because I'm having trouble locating it, what with all the many, many paragraphs of regurgitated China vs. USA fantasies, poorly-delineated quotes, etc.
     
  11. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    You know what?

    BillyT, you're pissing me off.


    I've raised, what I believe to be a Valid complaint, based on recent and Immediate events that have a deliberate lasting effect. An impression one can easily have from now--- that leads to how they respond. I'd really like to address that to all parties satisfaction. I believe it is unjustified and I did not earn that.

    And as it is, I'm contending with a Lack of Response. It's like talking to a wall. This is why I wanted to address it sooner, rather than later. Why I said that the reaction I got demonstrated a certain impatience for me.

    And here you are, rehashing something that frankly you earned. You earned because one does not need to justify how they perceive your wording- because what you asked was Clear- what you are promoting is Clear.
    You are re-hashing something that is four years old and in the process, working toward gaining a New infraction point in any case.

    It can easily be related to mine, making it appear as though my complaint is an invalid as yours.

    It's four years old- You cannot justify bombing factories to keep labor here at home.

    Go drink a scotch, watch a bad movie and contemplate your life.
     
  12. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    I dont think Billy's thread deserves an infraction...and military action against China is not necessary.

    What is required is a trade equalization agreement...stating that China must buy and sell an equal value of imports and exports.

    This is how you avoid a tariff war...while eliminating the trade deficit which is destroying the US.
     
  13. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    And also stating that the US must buy and sell an equal value of imports and exports.

    :gasp:
     
  14. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    That is conceptually possible, but of no interest to China as most US made items are much more expensive. I.e. if both agree to buy 100 billion from the other annually, China would get about 1/3 as many cars, computers, TVs, etc. as it sends to the US.

    A little more than a year ago, China & India did agree to mutual balanced trade at the 100billion dollar level, but with no dollars to be used. This was a good deal for India as it has long had a trade deficit with China. China agreed, despíte the need to import more from India, as part of its program to switch global trade away from using dollars.

    Dollars are no longer used for China´s trade with Russia*, Japan, S. Korea, Brazil, India, and Australia, (I think), plus many African nations, and more than a dozen other Asian nations. China is working to gain the advantage the US has had for decades, of paying for large part of its imports with printed paper, instead of exports of items it could use domestically.

    * Just today, 5June12, new (and prior) president of Russia is in China and with Chinese president agreed to boost their mutual trade (from current 80 billion/ year) to 200 billion per year by 2020. - All of it, of course, without any use of the dollar as it has been for several years.

    That trade has been growing by more than 40% each year for several year, so this is sort of just agreeing to keep doing what is happening. If the stalled for two years shipment to China of natural gas (with large ID pipeline already installed and waiting) by failure to agree on gas price were resolved, their trade would already be nearly 100 billion annual. I think recent collapse of natural gas prices has made China reluctant to sign on the dotted line the long term take or pay contracts.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 5, 2012
  15. elte Valued Senior Member

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    I have the same worry that Pandora's box has been opened with regard to these viruses.

    Indeed, that important proverb in your comment was much of the motivation for why I began to dislike initiating competition against others since such activity tends to spread and escalate. I realized the difference between the against and with types of competition I see in the world.

    (I'll throw in another thing I've come to realize, as an aside. People should make an effort to avoid getting angry at other people but, rather, should get angry at situations and conditions, conditions like suffering and ignorance.)
     
  16. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    As if getting angry would help.
     
  17. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    That is a very real concern especially for the more advanced nations with extensive use of computers (banks, air traffic control, industrial processes, etc.) The Stuxnet worm, created by the US and Israel, is a weapon of war. It for example destroyed many centrifuges in Iran by increasing their RPM to self destruction rates.

    Flame is even more complex. It is a spying tool described in part here: http://www.securelist.com/en/blog/208193522/The_Flame_Questions_and_Answers

    But what all it can do is not yet known*, as its 20+ modules are constantly being made more versatile and stronger. Known is that Flame can: monitor network traffic, taking screenshots, recording audio conversations, intercepting the keyboard strokes , and so on. All this data is available to the operators through the link to Flame’s command-and-control servers. It can via Wi-Fi even trick non-infected computers into sending their data thru the infected computer so everything going on in them is known to the controllers too.

    Flame is a huge package of modules comprising almost 20 MB in size when fully deployed. Because of this, it is an extremely difficult piece of malware to analyze. The reason why Flame is so big is because it includes many different libraries, such as for compression (zlib, libbz2, ppmd) and database manipulation (sqlite3), together with a Lua virtual machine, yet none of the available anti-viral programs can even tell it exists in your computer. Flame is clearly a multi-year continuing effort that has cost many millions of dollars to create.

    By my four year old post, A POLL, I was asking it US should undo the more modern factories GWB´s trickle down tax relief for very rich had built in China. When I posted it, I did not know the US was already making covert and destructive war against some other governments with no discussion (like a poll) about the wisdom (or not) of doing this.

    * I suspect Flame made many drone strikes (non-judical killing of "bad guys") possible. For details on latest such, "Al-Libi death a major blow for al Qaeda" see: http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/05/al-libi-loss-would-be-major-blow-for-al-qaeda/?hpt=hp_c1
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 5, 2012
  18. elte Valued Senior Member

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    Wynn, how can one prevent anger of some type in this pitiful human existence plagued by psychologically and physically exploitive practices of people? It makes me both sad and mad. It's what they know and have learned so I blame ignorance and social failings for such things. It's like I can't be mad at the psychopath who knew nothing much more than abuse; or maybe ethics just doesn't click for that person. Thanks for the heartfelt thought.
     
  19. elte Valued Senior Member

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    I'm pretty much to the point of being neutralized by all the aggression out there and all I ever wanted to do was to try to do good things that people appreciate and be safe, myself. Actually trying to do better than just live and let live would have suited me.

    So what I'm getting at is humankind wastes so much energy and talent because it hasn't let go of bad ways of carrying on, like terrorists attacking and countries counterattacking. We're smarter than that, we just must be.
     
  20. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    I agree and support your POV, but am not sure about the last sentence. - It may be the problem.

    In fact, I fear the life forms as "intelligent" and capable as modern man may have a half-life against self destruction of less than 1000 years. This fear is why I don´t think there is much point to SETI.

    Being competitive, taking advantages over others seems to be built into our genes by Darwinian selection, which I think functions on all planets in the universe, so I am not very optimistic about the long term prospects of "intelligent" life forms.

    Turtles, alligators and many type fish have already demonstrated 10,000 times slower rate of change than man has with million plus years of stability. Being "intelligent" may be a curse for the more advanced life forms.

    If there is a solution, it has little chance of being adopted. For example a rigid universal law that made everyone marry only someone who was born more than 5000 miles from were they were and forced them to live 5000 miles for either birth place, might end wars and force mutual assistance, concern for others, instead. Humans are by nature "social animals" but there needs to be only one global society, not several hundred in competition.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 6, 2012
  21. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    What is of interest to China is precisely the problem Billy..their interest is in predatory mercantilism.

    The alternative is trade equilibrium or a tariff war...where they have far more to lose than the US.

    And no, China does not import the same goods they export to the US.


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  22. Epictetus here & now Registered Senior Member

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    It is rather trollish that you are whining about a four-year old, expired reprimand, but far worse, are/were you actually suggesting that the U.S. bomb China because of unfair trade practices!? Because, if you are, I am sure no one elected you military dictator of America, so where do you even get off talking about it? And if you really are suggesting murdering people for financial advantage, why even military dictator is too kind a term for you! You are delusional street punk who thinks he's a mafia boss.

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  23. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    I'm actually wondering why they are debating that topic now in this thread...

    It's like... what just happened?

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