Suppose this hypothetical situation: You sleep with a woman. Later on, you find out that she is your sister. Would you feel bad because of the incest? Or would you not feel bad, since you didn't know she was your sister, so you are not to be blamed for the incest?
It is not about not being able to change things in the past. It is accepting blame for things that you did, for which you later on found out that they were wrong. Oedipus, for example, felt guilty. You don't. Your moral reasoning is vastly different than his. It is for the same reasons that you would not take blame for the incest commited in ignorance that you don't feel sorry either for the animals you kill by accident, nor for those killed on purpose. As if accident and purpose were the same to you.
Hmm, I do not know if I would feel bad. Thinking about it, I do not have a problem with incest on principal, as long as no child is conceived... Regarding your question, I think that I would feel kind of strange having slept with my sister without knowing it, but what done is done, I could not change it in any event. I do not know how I would react, very likely I would not care, I have to accept what happened, my resulting feelings would be of no consequence to past events. But I assume that I would not do it again (sleeping with my sister I mean).
I think that there are different reasons for my feelings towards animals and this example of incest. First, I do not care much about animals. As I have said, I kill various kinds of animals for food or profit, and I do not always kill them cleanly, meaning that I bash their heads on rocks because I do not have a knive to slit their throats. So it is quite obvious that I do not feel for them to a great extend, otherwise I would be unable to treat them like this. Why do I not fell for them? Probably because I see no reason for it. They may experience pain, but I heard that starving is not such a nice experience, so little fishy gets its guts ripped out and thrown to the gulls, along with his head. Just too bad. So I have an animal that sits on the street, or walks/jumps onto it, whatever. Animal gets killed, in normal traffic conditions my choices would be: 1. Evade the animal-> As a result, I might lose control over my vehicle, hit a tree/wall/traffic sign on the right side of the road or swerve onto the left lane into the traffic. Possible outcome of this decision, I am dead or injured, some other people too, e.g. passengers or other drivers. BUT, animal would live. 2. Hit and kill the animal-> Result: A dent in my bumper, no big deal. Seriously, it would be highly unresponsible to not hit the animal, no matter how often this happens. (Note, I nearly never drive alone, so I would stake more than my life) And no, I do not feel bad about it. I do not take blame if an animal runs onto the street and I rather kill it than endangering multiple lifes. I could only take blame for driving a car, or you could blame the holder of the animal. But as a fact, I know that I killed another living being, alas, I do not care about it. Its life had no meaning to me. If it bothers you so much, I will take the next roadkill home, skin it and eat it for lunch. Then this would be covered by a hazy justification of my need to eat. But I think you have a real problem with the fact that I appear quite...mmh, what would be a fitting word? In fact, I think I might appear kind of unresponsible or even cruel to you. Is it that what´s bothering you? I do not understand (note, I really mean "I do not understand") where the problem is. I will admit that I am a killer if that is what you want. I know that I took part in ending the life of a sentient being. But what are you expecting? Sympathy? I register those unfortunate events and perhaps even learn from it. Still, they are dead, while me, my passengers and other people are still alive. This might not be the case if my choice would have been another one. Seeing your response to my answer about the incest question, I will elaborate and explain my former response again. First, I would admit that I have done something morally and lawful wrong. Alas, since I lacked knowledge, I have to accept the fact that I unintentionally have slept with my sister. I cannot well alter the event or the results. I would take responsibility for the ensuing conflict at least partly, since she also unintetionally would have slept with her brother. But no, I would not feel bad. Because my concept of bad and good probably greatly differs in perspective to yours. Why should I feel bad? Even if I had done it quite intentionally I am not sure that I would feel bad. I would feel altered, but I do not think that "bad" describes it. As to the possibility of a child, I would counsel to abort it. But of course that would not be my choice. Theoretically, if my sister would want to bear it, I would again resume responsibility and support her if possible.
Just a question, imagine you are driving a car of about 1.5 tons at 50-60 kph (normal velocity in cities) and a dog/cats jumps out from roadside thicket 2 meters ahead of you. The result? Would you swerve to the left/right to avoid it? That would be utter folly, a human and a car cannot possibly react that fast. The animal would be dead anyway, and you would crash if you try to evade. Would you feel guilty? Even thought there would have been no possibility of not hitting the animal? Why? I do not understand. Why should you TAKE blame FOR something even when there was no possible way of changing or preventing it?
That would be a hard one to answer. Of course, I think most people would feel dirty and disgusted by such a thing, at least a little. The question is responsibility. As you say, you didn't know, so you can't be blamed. But, blame has nothing to do with shame. I'd probably be a bit ashamed. But, maybe just a little aroused at the thought. I'm a dirty bastard, really. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! The real question is, if I found out she was my sister and she still didn't know, would I have sex with her again? Probably not, but this is a question that can only be answered by the body, I think. Only answered by doing, not discussing. I'm sick, aren't I? That I didn't immediately jump in with the "Ewwwww! Gross! My sister? Never. I'd cut my dick off afterwards." There is a horrible stigma attached to incest. However, not all children born of incest are horrible monstrosities. Especially with first cousins. I'm not entirely sure of the rate of deformation with sibling procreation. I recall a biology teacher once going with Mendel's laws on this scenario. 1 in 4 chance of being deficient. 2 in 4 chance of being normal. 1 in 4 chance of being superior. I imagine this is a bit simplistic though. We're not dealing with peas here. I suppose the question would be if there are any bad recessive traits that could be strengthened by the mating. Or maybe even if there are good recessive traits. Remember, animal breeders sometimes cross siblings to "seal" a trait. But, animal breeders don't care if monsters are born. They can be killed with little twinge of conscience. The danger comes from excessive interbreeding. From doing it over and over again. Generation after generation. There is always the chance of getting dealt a bad hand with the first attempt (after all, who knows? Your parents might have been Siblings. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ) but the odds are that the child will not be a monster. I read an article on some millionaire family, don't remember which one right now (I could dig up the magazine if anyone is interested), who inbred with first cousins, nieces, nephews, for 2 or 3 generations. They did this because of the old guys will. I think only the men were getting money. So, the girls were out of luck. So instead of inheriting, they married back into it. Like I said, 2 or 3 generations of inbreeding (none as close as siblings) and then it was back to bringing in fresh blood. No horrible births (unless they were quietly smothered and buried in the back yard). It's a crap shoot. That said, I'd probably urge an abortion for her anyway. While this is an interesting topic, what does this have to do with running over dogs on the Autobahn? Or ranking on Connellan? I suppose this is your thread, Rosa. You can do anything you want in here. All hail Queen Rosa. Lord of this thread. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Oh. Missed this one somehow. Never mind. Anyway, blame is different than responsibility. Shame=Self-blame? Guilt=Self-responsibility? Hmmm.
Alas, looking at the word blame: Mmh, yes, I think that I am to blame for the death of many animals (I like fish and even whale...) Alas: No, I do not feel that. So, blame me, I will take responsibility, but don´t expect me to feel guilty about it. Since: I am never worried or nervous, what for? And: I am also never sad or unsatisfied. So I assume that I am quite unable to even feel guilt for something I did. The same applies to shame. I am shameless, so I probably cannot answer you queries to your satisfaction since I am not really able to experience some of the things that you employ in your posts.
I think the same practice of doing back-up copies posts as we do in Andy's case will be needed with her too. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I'll come back later, don't have much time now. And Invert: John started this thread to talk about himself and issues somehow regarding him, including theoretical debates about morality in general ... This is NOT my thread, lord Invert.
The Paeon John may have started this thread, but it was named for the Lady Rosa and she has surely taken possession of it. John hardly comes in here anymore. Now you can use this thread to discuss interesting things. We've come to terms that John is boring so let's talk about incest and killing animals. As to shame and guilt, there is a thread in the works on this subject. And this discussion is giving me ideas on how to start it. What was it that Jaded said, I wonder?
Why did you delete it then? Were you feeling guilty? Shameful? Blaming yourself? As to whale. Never had it. How is it that a German is able to? Isn't is illegal in Germany?
Well, my sister lives in Norway, and Norway is allowed to catch some whale or does it anyway. It is quite delicious I have to admit. Note, I did eat it in Norway, not smuggled it here.
