Russian actors helped Trump and Republicans in election

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Kittamaru, Dec 10, 2016.

  1. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,910
    LOL...THINK ANYBODY IS BUYING YOUR ATTEMPT TO TAKE BACK YOUR ARGUEMENT? You made an illogical argument as you are wont to do. You created a straw man as I pointed out. You did the same thing Trump's surrogates did yesterday on the Sunday morning talk shows. I pointed it out. You need to be honest.

    You have gone from people in this thread are just being crybabies to this is a serious problem. That's a lot of ground to cover in just a few posts. You should at least be honest about it.

    The sad part here is that you and your self described "conservatives" have once again placed your partisan interests above the interests of the nation. That should be of concern to every red blooded American.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2016
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  3. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    The fact that people are saying "who cares", regardless of if this actually swayed the election or not... that's terrifying.

    The point stands - Mitch McConnel and others KNEW ABOUT THIS LONG AGO, and hushed it up.
    Covering up evidence of a foreign power breaking into US assets, especially in a situation where the highest position in the United States Government is at stake... that seems like grounds for treason to me.
     
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  5. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    Who said that?
    Huh? What exactly was hushed up? I've known about this for months - didn't you? there was even a thread about it!
    [edit]
    Oh, you're referring to this:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...d324840106c_story.html?utm_term=.1a7574a09885

    But:
    So there was no coverup, just disagreement over what to do with the information. And the Obama administration chose to do less than some Democrats would have wanted. One group that was not in a position to act on the information was Congress, as they do not have executive power.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2016
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  7. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    I certainly have not: unlike people in here who are trying to imply things they know aren't true or have no evidence of, I say exactly what I mean. I'll be crystal clear:
    1. This is a serious problem.
    2. This thread was started and is progressing as a group-whine by crybabies.
     
  8. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    So you do not care that a foreign country that is openly hostile to the US and US interests has interfered with your election to help the person you support get elected?

    Would you have reacted in the same way if the tables were reversed and Clinton was on the receiving end of such foreign support and won the election? Would you be scoffing about a "group whine" and saying "so what?"..?

    Why you should care is that it is clear that your election, your "democratic" election was not free nor fair. An external and hostile force has interfered with your election. Whether it affected the result or not is beside the point. We will never know the true extent of their success. But again, that is beside the point.

    I find it astonishing that you are taking the "so what?" attitude. This is one of the most serious things that can happen in an election. It is one of the most grievous. It is also dangerous. Because from now on, your elections can never be deemed to be fair or democratic. At present, one side is ignoring it, denying it, insulting the intelligence community who are in agreement that the Russians interfered...

    Think about that for a moment.

    Your President Elect is selling out American intelligence agencies and calling them liars in public to protect Putin. Literally.

    These are the people who are looking out for American interests in the US and abroad. These are the people who determine the threats and risks to the US and its interests, not to mention investigate and try to prevent harm to the US and its interests in the US and abroad.

    And he is telling the American public that American intelligence officials cannot be trusted and should not be trusted.

    Why is he doing this? Because to admit or accept the Russian interference would be to insult Putin.

    Again. Your President Elect just sold out US intelligence to protect Putin and Russia.

    And your response to all of this is "so what?"..

    It is baffling. Nix that. It is horrifying.
     
  9. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    I received a zero-point infraction from Kitt in a previous thread for putting words in people's mouths. Since I explicitly stated the opposite of both of those things, I expect a retraction or other moderator action against you. That's disgraceful, Bells.
    At best you are misreading, Bells. People are implying all sorts of things in this thread. I am asking for specifics. Until I know the answer to "so what" I can't give an opinion on the answer, can I?
     
  10. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    As Bells said - our president elect's actions are not only morally reprehensible... they are openly and obviously harmful to our nation (and the world as a whole!). Yes, lets give a company several million dollars in tax cuts to keep a few hundred jobs from going to Mexico... instead, that company will replace those jobs with automation (which, ironically, they have already said they will do!)
    http://dailycaller.com/2016/12/09/the-carrier-jobs-trump-saved-will-be-automated-anyway/
    http://money.cnn.com/2016/12/08/news/companies/carrier-jobs-automation/
    Increasing tariffs on imported goods will simply increase the cost of goods sold, or cause companies to simply sell elsewhere.

    Bring back coal mining jobs? Sure, easily done... but at the same time, they are working to slash or even do away with altogether the programs that provide medical care for these poor souls that work in the coal mines, filling their lungs with black shit that slowly kills them!

    http://grist.org/briefly/republicans-are-taking-coal-miners-pensions-and-their-healthcare/
    http://alisonforkentucky.com/newsroom/press-releases/fact-check-mcconnell-friend-coal-miners/
    I guess the best way to save money in terms of health care costs... is to just make sure the sick people die early! Sounds like a good plan to me [/s]

    Then, there are Trumps rather deep rooted ties to Russian interests:
    http://time.com/4433880/donald-trump-ties-to-russia/

    Conflict of interest isn't just a concern with this administration... it's a goddamn plan of action for them!
     
  11. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,051
    Are we still talking about Russia and the election? Broadening the scope to a generic griping session is exactly what I am referring to when calling this thread a "group-whine".

    I asked for specifics regarding where the issue in the OP should go. Do you have anything to say about it? It's your thread!

    I'll be more pointed:
    I'm not sure what "event" or "plan" you are thinking of, so I'll just guess: are you suggesting Obama should cancel the election results? If not, what would you like to see happen?
     
  12. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    What specifics would you like? I felt my original post was quite succinct, but I'll elaborate further - what, if any, plan is there in place for when it is known and apparent that a hostile foreign power has interfered with and swayed the results of our electoral process? To my knowledge, this sort of event has not happened before... and seeing the recount efforts being aggressively stonewalled at every opportunity by the party that benefited from this apparent interference does not inspire an ounce of faith that the system worked as intended... if nothing untoward happened, then why do they feel the need to act like they have something to hide? Let the recount go onward, and stop blocking it (after all, someone else raised the money to foot the bill, so whats the harm).
     
  13. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    You did.

    Are these not your words? So what? indeed.. As in who really cares or gives a shit?

    In regards to your "group-whine" comment. The U.S. Intelligence Community, which consists of 17 agencies, have released a statement stating that Russia interfered with your election. Trump has come out and called them all liars and said they could not be trusted and that no such thing happened because he does not believe it happened.

    Retraction?

    This is what everyone is talking about in this thread at the moment.

    Who put those words into your mouth? Did someone else type that on your behalf?

    Billvon's comment was in response to your flippant remark, and I quote again:


    And your response to that was to pretty much ask "who cares?"..

    Again, your President Elect, that you have defended repeatedly on this site and touted on this site, just denounced the US Intelligence Community as being a bunch of liars and announced they should not be trusted. And he did so to protect Putin and Russia. A country and President who has been openly hostile to the US and US interests. So when Billvon comments that there is now evidence that Russia interfered with US elections, your "so what?" is basically what the GOP in Trump's good sycophant basket is doing.

    Do you understand how and why this is dangerous? Do you understand the implications of Trump's dismissal and selling out the US Intelligence Community to protect Putin and Russia? He discredited them.. Pretty much called them liars and declared they should not be believed. So the real question is why is he doing it? The important factor of this thread is why is Trump blaming everyone but Russia? Why is he dismissing the US Intelligence and saying they cannot be trusted (the Iraq comment, for example) and should not be believed to not insult Putin and Russia? It raises many red flags. It is concerning for a variety of reasons.

    In sorting through the hysteria that overtook the political media for the past 48 hours, it seems to me there is one particularly important takeaway from this new revelation. Which can probably be summed up by simply saying, “We’re screwed.” But let’s look at it in a bit more detail anyway.

    The reaction of Donald Trump to this news has been grotesque. From his campaign’s initial statement Friday night to his interview with Chris Wallace on Fox News on Sunday, the racist tangerine who will soon occupy the Oval Office made it clear that any suggestion his win was a) not the most amazing, glorious, historic electoral victory ever and b) caused by anything besides millions of voters spontaneously realizing what an amazing human being he is was simply inconceivable. To say nothing of the flunkies he rolled out to support him.

    Instead Trump disparaged the intelligence agencies he will soon be nominally leading, insisted he didn’t believe them, and accused those who suggest that Russian hacks influenced the election of being bitter Democrats who can’t face to the fact that they lost. For good measure, he revealed that he isn’t bothering to go to intelligence briefings because “I’m, like, a smart person.”

    It would be one thing if Trump had genuine reason to disbelieve the intelligence on Russia, such an alternative assessment from another agency. There are 17 intelligence agencies (that we know of) providing services to our nation’s policymakers. Obviously those agencies will sometimes to clash and offer conflicting information. But generally they will hammer out a consensus that makes its way up to Congress and the president and allows the machinery of national security to make decisions. In the case of Russian hacking, all 17 of these agencies have supposedlycome to the same general conclusion – that the Russians played a role in subverting and sowing chaos in this year’s election.

    But Trump does not have alternative information. (How could he if he doesn’t go to briefings?) He simply doesn’t want to believe what he is hearing. In terms of intellectual curiosity, Trump is already making George W. Bush look like Socrates.

    How is the nation’s intelligence community supposed to function when it has to report to a man who refuses to believe what it says, based only on personal preference or existing prejudice? A man who has already announced he does not believe the first significant issue they’ve brought to him? How useless will the people risking their lives to gather intelligence feel if the nation’s president is telling Sean Hannity that they’re all a bunch of bullshit artists?

    Instead of saying "so what?", you should be asking why he is choosing Putin and Russia over US Intelligence... But hey, it's easier to just dismiss it all under a "so what?" and refer to it as a "group whine".. Right?
     
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  14. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    And yet people like Russ want to summarily dismiss this as just a bunch of crybabies throwing a temper tantrum. They cannot see past their partisan zealotry.
     
  15. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    No I'm stating what evidence is needed for this to move up from "idly speculation".

    I see no problem with that, just would not make sense with whose emails were hacked and leaked. What is important to note is the Russians giving wikileaks those emails does not somehow invalid Trumps impending presidency, evidence would be needed that Trump is somehow directly involved, until that all this is idle speculation as you say.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2016
  16. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Do you now....

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    So you didn't write, "But ok: we agree now, so great!"? Then who did? It was posted under your name. Now you are backing away. You are all over the place.

    Please do.

    What is a serious problem…the fact that Russia did it or the fact they got caught and exposed or the fact that the Republican president-elect has summarily and without merit dismissed it and the 17 intelligence agencies who caught Russia, or is it the fact your man Trump publicly called upon Russia to release information it had illegally hacked from his political opponent, or is it the fact that the Republican Senate majority leader actively squashed this news prior to the election?

    Yes, you have repeatedly said that, but you have offered nothing of substance to support it. What you have done is obfuscate and offer intellectually dishonest discourse. Personal attacks are not a substitute for evidence and reason.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2016
  17. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    5,051
    It wasn't. Just being short doesn't make it succinct. It also needs to be clear and complete. What is lacking is the very "what" of the topic before we can move to "what do we do about it". I asked for it before, but even though it is your (and those who are following your lead) responsibility, I'll provide it:

    What happened here is that Russia hacked John Podesta's email account and released his emails through Wikileaks. We've all known this for months, but what is new is that the CIA commented, and they said Russia also hacked Republican accounts, but didn't release any information (though they didn't make it clear who was hacked or what information, if any, was stolen). This implies strongly that Russia was selective and acted to benefit Trump.

    So, what should or can be done about this? Well unfortunately, John Podesta is a private citizen and the organizations he worked for (the Center for American Progress, DNC, and Hillary for President) are private companies, so there isn't much for the government to do about it other than the general cybersecurity work it already does. Primary responsibility for cybersecurity for private companies falls on those private companies, and the government's responsibility here is the same as it was for the Target hack (which also came from Russia). Though I suppose if the federal government took cybersecurity more seriously in its own day-to-day operations we might have ended-up with better educated and behaving Democratic officials and both this and Hillary's email scandal might not have happened.

    So....how is that? Do you have anything to contribute regarding the topic of your thread?

    P.S.
    Now, following the vauge OP there have been a lot of vague (except for iceaura, who was specific) allgetions that Trump himself was involved. Now as far as I know, there is no actual indication Trump was involved, so this is an argument based on a false (or unproven) premise, but if he was, impeachment just after taking office would be the recourse. In any case, the reason I pushed back on you to be more specific about the "what" is because it isn't clear to me if you are also speculating based on the same vague implications.
    Again, specifics matter. Foreign governments try to influence elections all the time, and Russia was not unique a the general idea of wanting to influence the election -- other heads of state made anti-Trump speeches and Obama made an anti-Brexit speech. Remember, Russia's influence here was indirect, not direct. It was a propaganda campaign, not a hack of the voting boths (despite, again, the vague conspiracy theories suggesting that).

    And I'm sure if you think harder you can remember past incidents of direct election tampering even by the USA.
    The fact that the side that won doesn't want a recount does not imply anything like what you are suggested. Of course the side that won doesn't want a recount. They never do!
     
  18. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,634
    They attempted to alter the course of an election. They did. That mean "successfully."
    So we have a president who was put into office, in part, by a country wishing to influence our political process. You can say "I don't care" which is fine. Some people do care about whether we are a country who decides our own policies, or whether other countries have control of it.
    And your replies have a tone of "I got my way and I really don't give a shit about the consequences." Again, that's fine, and quite common in the US.
     
  19. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    5,051
    Fair enough. I'm suggesting that idle speculation should be avoided. It leads to misunderstandings and conspiracy theory.
     
  20. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    5,051
    Again, you are assuming a fact that you don't have and is inherrently impossible to ever get. You are assuming that without Russia's influence, Hillary would have won.
     
  21. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    This is an internet forum, no idle speculation would cut out 90% of the post here. Misunderstanding and conspiracy theories are simply inevitable.
     
  22. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Russ, that reads to me like a whole lot of obsfucation - no, I don't recall any instances where a foreign agent actively hacked into and then released information from a candidate during an active campaign (admittedly, I am only 28, so I've only been alive for 7 elections total, and of those, I was too young to care for three of them). I can only guess you are referring to the recount fiasco from a few elections ago (I think it was Bush vs Gore back in 2000?)

    Does it matter that it was a private individual or not? I would think what matters is the character traits being displayed - in effect, suppressing or otherwise downplaying this information shows the moral fiber (or lack thereof) of our current president elect and his cronies... is that REALLY the kind of person that should be put in charge of the entire nation, especially knowing his current (and continuing) conflicts of interest between what is best for the nation and what is best for his wallet?

    Does it not matter to you that our entire election process was, due to the actions of a few individuals, unquestionably and severely swayed? I'm not saying Hillary should have won (far from it, I dislike her almost as much as Trump) - but shouldn't we, America, be able to make that choice free from foreign attempts to push it one way or another?

    For that matter... shouldn't the fact that Russia pushed FOR Trump indicate a potential reason why Trump should be kept out of office? What has Putin promised him? What backroom deals have they struck? Or, perhaps even more concerning... what has Putin blackmailed him with?
     
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,634
    Let's put it this way -

    Had Clinton won, and evidence emerged that ISIS had hacked into US servers and selectively released material to try to ensure her victory, I have no doubt you would, at the very least, be doing what you could to make sure everyone knew this.
     

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