Russian warplane downed; Turkey says aircraft violated airspace near border

Discussion in 'World Events' started by p-brane, Nov 24, 2015.

  1. p-brane Registered Senior Member

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  3. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    They are also saying, according to CNN, that ground fire brought the jet down. - This may be a lie, made to reduce tensions between NATO Turkey and Russia.

    It might be a good idea to sign on to this lie instead of show the gun camera film of the Turkish jets.
     
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  5. p-brane Registered Senior Member

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    Although the Turks are saying they warned the Russian pilots 10 times before they shot them down, unless they had good reason to believe that the jet posed an imminent threat, it might have made more sense to instead call in the Russian ambassador to deliver a warning to him. However it may also be that this situation is more complicated than it seems.
     
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  7. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Well, that is what Mother Russia is saying. It's probably an attempt to save face. But for nearly two years now Mother Russia has been transgressing NATO airspace. It looks like Putin has now gotten his nose bloodied. He has terrorists blowing up his aircraft and now he has a NATO member shooting down his aircraft. It's not like he hasn't been warned on multiple occasions by Turkey. Turkey has also called for an emergency NATO meeting.

    I suspect the US will intervene and attempt to reconcile all parties. Most people learn in early childhood that if you play with fire, you can get burnt. Apparently, Putin is a slow learner. Putin has promised retribution, but the truth is Putin doesn't have much to work with in that regard. Turkey's economy is roughly equivalent in size to that of Russia. Turkey's chief Russian dependency is natural gas. But Turkey isn't wholly dependent upon Mother Russia for that resource. So any Russian economic retaliation against Turkey, as with Russia's other economic retaliations, would be largely symbolic.

    It has been reported the pilots ejected but at least one was shot down by the Free Syrian Army.
     
  8. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Well is more complicated that it seems. Russia has repeatedly invaded Turkish airspace and has been repeatedly warned. This wasn't the first time Russian aircraft have invaded Turkish airspace. Russia has a long history of invading the airspace of NATO nations and Turkish airspace in particular. Russia has received multiple warnings from Turkey and many other nations.

    Either Russian pilots are incompetent, or their leaders are not capable of exercising control over them or Russian leadership is intentionally violating the airspace of other nations.
     
  9. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    They said, initially, that this was a possibility. Now it is already clear that the Turks have shot the jet down. It was hit by an air-to-air missile launched by a Turkish F-16 jet. And, by the way, Putin has now explicitly named Turkey as a terrorist supporter. "Russia has for a long time been aware of oil going from Syria under the control of terrorists to Turkey, Putin said. The money finances terrorist groups."
     
  10. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    That the Turks lie is obvious, even if their claim about the Russian's plane flight https://twitter.com/HDNER/status/669103121684160512 is correct, it means he was "over Turkey for 1.67 miles - about 15 seconds" How this corresponds to "Turkey said it issued 10 warnings to the aircraft before two F-16s responded "within engagement rules" near the Turkey-Syria border."?
     
  11. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Well here is the thing, Turkey doesn't like the Assad regime and Russia does. That's why Russia and Turkey are at odds. It has absolutely nothing to do with terrorists. Assad is a pretty good terrorist in his own right. He's the guy who has used sarin and other gasses on his own people killing thousands of innocent men, women and children. So if we are to be consistent, using your logic, we would have to say Russia is a terrorist nation too. Because Russia has done more than just finance the Assad government. It has introduced military forces to defend the terrorist regime.
     
  12. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    LOL....well here is the thing, if it is so obvious as you assert, then you should be easily able to prove it. And you can't. What is known is that this isn't the first time Russia has illegally invaded Turkish airspace. This wasn't the first time Russia has been warned against invading Turkish airspace. We will have to wait for more details to emerge before any rational conclusions can be reached with respect to this incident. But already Russia is trying to spin this as a ground to air missile. Russia is trying to spin this as you have done, that Turkey didn't give Russia enough time. Well if Russian aircraft weren't in Turkish airspace to begin with this wouldn't be an issue. Are Russian pilots so bad they don't know where they are? Are Russian pilots so bad, they have little if any situational awareness? If that is indeed the case, then they have no business being in Syria.
     
  13. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    Joe, thanks for openly admitting that you support the IS terrorists as well as their Turkish supporters. This is, at least, quite obvious, given that you have not even tried to deny that Turkey supports the IS oil smuggle.

    That you combine this with usual propaganda hate speech against Assad is nothing worth to care about.

    And, no, Russia is not trying to spin this as a ground to air missile, the theory that it may have been such a missile was simply the initial reaction when it has not yet been known. And if the Russian jet has been in Turkish airspace or not is yet an open question. What seems clear is that it was shot down over Syrian territory.
     
  14. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    My interpretation is that Putin is constantly in search of The Line. Clearly, he found one.
     
  15. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Indeed he did.
     
  16. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    LOL...I guess no one should be surprised that you are once again lying. Just where exactly did I support much less admit to supporting ISIS? As is always the case with you, you are making shit up again. Show me where Turkey has voiced support for ISIS oil smuggling. The fact you used the word smuggling strongly suggests oil smuggling is illegal. If Turkey supported it as you claim, it wouldn't be illegal.

    Coming from the former Soviet Union as you do, I guess you cannot be blamed for not understanding the difference between truth and honesty and hate speech and propaganda. The truth isn't hate speech or propaganda. The fact is the UN found Assad has gassed his people. That isn't hate speech, that isn't propaganda. That is fact. Sarin and other chemicals were used on innocent men, women and children in cities controlled by rebels.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/17/sarin-deadly-history-nerve-agent-syria-un

    The unpleasant fact for you is, using your logic in calling Turkey a terrorist supporter, in order to be consistent, you have to also call Mother Russia a supporter of terrorism. Because Mother Russia has supported Assad's terrorist regime with money and with troops.

    Oh, then how is Mother Russia trying to spin this then? Additionally, it isn't clear nor does it "seems" clear that it was shot down over Syrian territory. That's your Russian spin machine. You do understand the concept of momentum...being a scientist and all?

    The other interesting thing fact is Russia has no ability to rescue its downed pilots. Russia has no search and rescue ability in the region. So if the pilots survived, they are on their own. Why would Russia introduce aircraft into the region without search and rescue abilities? I guess that speaks to how Russia values its servicemen or perhaps to its desperation or incompetent leaders.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2015
  17. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Turkey's trade with Russia is second only to that with the EU.
    Partner Value Mio €
    World 291,733, 100.0 1%
    EU 28 114,789, 39.3 2%
    Russia 18,453, 10.4% but losing that 10.4% would hurt both countires.

    Data for 2014 from: http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/september/tradoc_113456.pdf, with credit given to IMF as source.
     
  18. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    Of course it would be illegal, because IS has stolen the oil from Syria or Iraq. Buying stolen things is illegal, even if you don't know this.

    And, no, I see no reason to show you something I did not claim.
    No, the UN has not found that Assad has gassed people. All the UN has found is that chemical weapons have been used. Once the other side claims that this was a false flag attack, that means, an attack with the aim to create the impression that Assad had done it, to justify the start of the US war against Assad, it is obvious that such a false flag attack would be applied against people in regions controlled by the rebels. By the way, there have been claims that the victims have been abducted by jihadists from Alawite villages from Latakia, see
    http://www.voltairenet.org/article180130.html
    It is quite clear that one can easily prove, with a foto from satellite, where it was shot. So, it would be stupid for Putin to lie about this, and he has said that it was shot 1km inside the Syrian airspace.
    This is not a thing, but your fantasy. Of course, if the pilots come down in an area controlled by the terrorists, and the terrorists shoot them already when they come down, their chance to survive is not big, with or without rescue possibilities. But what is possible, they can do and they do, the have, in particular, helicopters for this job. Not without risk too, because the US-backed terrorists have MANPADs able to shoot helicopters. But such is live, if you fight US-backed terrorists, you can be sure that they have such weapons.
     
  19. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, so you didn't write, "Putin has now explicitly named Turkey as a terrorist supporter. "Russia has for a long time been aware of oil going from Syria under the control of terrorists to Turkey, Putin said. The money finances terrorist groups." or Joe, thanks for openly admitting that you support the IS terrorists as well as their Turkish supporters. This is, at least, quite obvious, given that you have not even tried to deny that Turkey supports the IS oil smuggle." and you didn't write " Of course it would be illegal, because IS has stolen the oil from Syria or Iraq. Buying stolen things is illegal, even if you don't know this.".

    The unfortunate fact for you is your words betray you. You were asked to support your claim Turkey was knowingly selling buying ISIS oil. Using your logic, Russia is more of a terrorist than Turkey. Now you are adding the 'even if it unknowingly purchased' ISIS oil. You have no proof the Turkish government purchased ISIS oil or even sanctioned it. That's why you cannot prove it.

    Even if Turkey purchased or was in some way negligent it doesn't make Turkey any more of a terrorist than your beloved Putin. Because as has been repeatedly pointed out to you, Putin has not only supported a terrorist organization financially, he has supported it militarily.

    Well here is the thing. You don't have any credible sources to back up your claims. Your claims don't even make sense. The rebels don't have access to chemical weapons. The only one with access to chemical weapons is Assad. The only one with the technical ability to use them is Assad. And then there is the question, why would the rebels gas their own wives and children and themselves? They don't like Assad, but they aren't suicidal. They cannot gas themselves with sarin they don't have or know how to use, and they don't have barrel bombs or the helicopters needed to deliver them. Assad is a terrorist.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/12/smuggled-syrian-documents-indict-assad-investigators

    Really....? Putin has lied about many things, including his little green men. Given Putin controls the press and all power in Russia, he can and has done a lot of lying about many things and will continue to do so and Russians will likely remain ignorant and misled.

    LOL...where do I begin? First, the Free Syrian Army aren't terrorists. They are freedom fighters. They haven't committed Assad's atrocities. And at this point, it isn't clear who shot the Russian pilots. It could have been the Free Syrian Army, it could have been ISIS. Two, you have no evidence MANPADs have been given to anyone in Syria. You are making shit up again. Three, apparently you know nothing of how a modern military conducts search and rescue operations. It's more than just flying in a few helicopters. It's suppressing hostile fire so you can fly in rescue resources and safely extract your people. It's planning ahead. It's about having and bringing in medical resources. The only fantasies around here are yours comrade and those of your fellow comrades. Russia's military strategy seems to be "shoot from the hip first last and always".
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2015
  20. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    I did write. But, you know the meaning of ""? It was a quote. Here is the source: https://www.rt.com/news/323262-putin-downing-plane-syria/ RT is, of course, a Russian source, but therefore it will care about presenting Putin's words in a quite accurate way.
    This is about your reaction to this. It is also not at all a claim that Turkey has openly admitted such criminal behavior.
    No, I wasn't. "Show me where Turkey has voiced support for ISIS oil smuggling." was your request. Of course, I think that Turkey does this in a hidden way, as criminals usually do.
    No, I think they know it, and they know it is illegal, and, therefore, they do not openly admit it. Unfortunately, it is not easy to hide hundreds of oil tankers travelling around. It is not my job to prove it. Because the claim is not my, I have quoted Putin who has made the claim.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34211838 writes:
    "US official: 'IS making and using chemical weapons in Iraq and Syria'"
    So this is no longer a secret, but openly admitted.
    No, and we have been over this. Putin has never denied this. He has simply not admitted it immediately after they have appeared there.
    They are headcutters and liver eating cannibals, fighting together with IS and Al Qaida, who use the label "FSA" to get American money.
    I know, this is what Americans need before starting an operation. They need so much firepower that they can even suppress the fire power over the territory of the enemy to save their pilots if one of them, probably by friendly fire, is shut. This is something America has once it fights against weak Third World countries like Panama or Afghanistan. If it would have to fight against a serious enemy, they would run away. As the armies they create in their colonies run away, if a comparable enemy appears. See http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/PUB1269.pdf
     
  21. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    One possible reaction to the attack has been suggested by the Kurds: "dear Russia, we Kurds will be happy to avenge your pilots. just give us MANPADS, we will give a nice no fly zone to Erdogan"
     
  22. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Didn't you just say the US provided MANPADS to rebels?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    You do realize the Kurds are no friends to Russia's beloved Assad and are US allied with the US?
     
  23. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    So you are now admitting you lied. Well that is a beginning.

    Well, you need to prove Turkey has done anything criminal and after several requests for proof you have provided none.

    So you admit you just made that shit up. You have no basis for your allegations. You are just blindly repeating what Putin has told you.

    Assad gassed his people years before ISIS as noted in the article you referenced.

    "The official said that militants were unlikely to have seized the chemical agent from the Syrian regime before the regime was forced to hand over its stockpile under the threat of US air strikes in 2013." - Your reference.

    I think the only people who believe that is you and your fellow Russians. And like your many other arguments, it doesn't even make sense. If Putin never denied his troops in Crimea then those troops should have been in regular Russian uniforms with their unit insignias.

    Except, like your other statements, you cannot prove any of that because it simply isn't true. The Free Syrian Army is at odds with both ISIS and Al Qaeda. Clearly you have been listening to too much of Putin's media.

    Hmm...so you think Saddam's army was weak? It was armed by Mother Russia, have you forgotten? Its military used Russian and Chinese military hardware. I don't know what value you think your reference adds to the discussion. And Mother Russia isn't by any means a first world country. It never has been.

    President Obama in his press conference today urged both Russia and Turkey to use restraint and not escalate the issue. We will see what happens. Allies are talking about implementing a no fly zone under the authority of the UN to prevent Mother Russia from straying into Turkish airspace.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1973

    Now Putin is loosing troops and hardware in Ukraine and Syria and is now involved in a face to face confrontation with NATO. Russia's economy is shrinking and has been shrinking for almost 2 years now while inflation ravages its currency. Russia continues to self destruct. If Putin continues down this course, I don't see how it ends well for Mother Russia.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2015

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