sandy: answer these claims against Christianity

Born-again Christians aren't killing anyone. We don't support those who do. We don't support terror organizations. We verbally crucify those that do.

Again: Born-again Christians aren't killing anyone. We didn't create this war. Muslims declared it 911 when they hijacked our planes, and blew up our skyscrapers killing 3000 innocent people. Saddam was an evil dictator who killed 1.5 MILLION of his own people. Remember the torture and rape rooms?

The deaths today are Muslims chosing to kill other Muslims. Americans kill very few. "Muslims were forced to commit those crimes?" By who? Allah? Religion of peace my @ss.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Why did the Iraqis come out to vote if they do not want democracy? Why are they trying so hard even when they are threatened by fellow Muslims? If I was an Iraqi living under Saddam I would have welcomed the US. And I would have fought to get democracy.

I post the truth. And you should stop trying to fool us. We're on to you.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

You are a hypocrite.

How can you support the Americans in Iraq when you know they kill people?

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

It's called war.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Big diff.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

So when a war is declared (based on a lie), it suddenly becomes okay to kill people?

Where is the 'big diff'?

 

Evil terrorists are hardly human in my book. They are the scum of the earth that need to be destroyed.

 

You said you don't support those that kill (which was a lie), but when war is declared, you suddenly turn a blind eye, suddenly,everyone that happens to die is an evil terrorist, scum and needs to be destroyed (any idea how dumb that sounds?).

You are a brain-dead Christian fanatic.

 

Ah... not that I'm influenced so much by the Commandments, but what about "Thou Shall Not Kill"?

 

The Americans only ever kill terrorists and other scum.

So its okay. Ask sandy.

*** Deleted by Forum Administrator ***

 

We true Muslims aren't killing anyone. We don't support those who do. We don't support terror organizations. We verbally crucify those that do.

See how similar our arguments are? The thing is, you cannot accept mine because you are a hypocrite and don't realize the huge double-standard you have going on.

Did you just say Muslims declared and executed 911? Prove it.

Yes, Saddam was an asshole. However, he was allowed to remain dictator, was supported by, etc, by the USA. Did you forget the US supplying Saddam with weapons in their war with Iran? What about the reasons for invading Iraq? All were false. The war was done in complete violation to the UN. Tell me how this war isn't illegal.

But what about the Christians who kill different people? Do you forget Mr. Adolf Hitler? How about the six or so Christian terrorist organizations I just mentioned a post before? Christianity a loving religion my ass.

The Iraqis voted because they thought any solution was better than fearing to leave your home. I don't buy the BS you say about what you'd do if you lived in Iraq. Welcome the US? What if they raped your sister and mother, or a drunk soldier shot your father in the head? Those things happen.

I look around this thread, and it seems you have many people against you. Why is this? I don't think the answer is because we hate the truth.

Come on sandy, I'm just getting started. I'd love to hear your reply.

 

See how similar our arguments are? The thing is, you cannot accept mine because you are a hypocrite and don't realize the huge double-standard you have going on.

This is ridiculous. There is ample evidence that it was indeed so; you merely need look it up. It would be completely pointless to give a list.

Actually, Saddam was in violation of several UN Resolutions. So how it is illegal? And as for all the weapons the US provided Saddam with...which ones? The only weapons I've seen Iraqi troops with are Soviet tanks, APCs and AKs. Soviet gear from start to finish. Which equipment did the Yanks supply him with?

They're bad.

Not a Christian.

A tiny proportion against the islamic ones, I'm afraid.

Moreso than islam, evidently. Sorry. Fix your house.

What if the radicals butchered your family? What if they blew up your mosque? You might just want the Yanks to stick around a while - and a majority of Iraqis want them to stay for at least a year.

You know, I don't agree with everything Sandy's saying, but I definitely don't agree with you when you decide to attack everything else instead of looking inward and taking the tiniest shred of responsibility for intolerance in islam. I look around this thread, and I see a lot of people who just hate her. I don't like it: so, let's just say that I'm in this little debate now. I don't say all Christians are perfect, but they aren't making laws to execute apostates or oppress everyone who isn't like them; partially church and state separation, partially not, but you won't find those things in the ummah. And we're talking about extant examples, natch?

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Can't prove it?

Saddam was in violation, but that didn't grant the US the right to invade Iraq.

The United States had been wary of the Islamic Republic of Iran since the Iranian Revolution, not least because of the kidnapping of its Tehran embassy staff in the 1979-81 Iran hostage crisis. According to former Iranian president, Abolhassan Bani-Sadr, shortly after the 1979 revolution Americans, Israelis, Iranian royalists at a secret meeting in Paris drew up a plan to invade Iran. Soviets then obtained a copy of the plan and sold it to Iran through intermediaries for $200,000.[12] According to Robert Parry there was a secret encouragement by the US administration (President Jimmy Carter, conveyed through Saudi Arabia) which was embroiled in a dispute with the new Islamic Republic of Iran. In the words of Alexander Haig, secretary of state from 1981, "It was also interesting to confirm that President Carter gave the Iraqis a green light to launch the war against Iran through Fahd." [13][14][15] However, Dr. Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Carter's National Security Advisor (United States) does not support this assertion.[16]

Starting in 1981, both Iran and Iraq attacked oil tankers and merchant ships, including those of neutral nations, in an effort to deprive the opponent of trade. After repeated Iraqi attacks on Iran's main exporting facility on Khark Island, Iran attacked a Kuwaiti tanker near Bahrain on May 13, 1984, and a Saudi tanker in Saudi waters on May 16. Attacks on ships of noncombatant nations in the Persian Gulf sharply increased thereafter, and this phase of the war was dubbed the "Tanker War."

In 1982 with Iranian success on the battlefield, the U.S. made its backing of Iraq more pronounced, supplying it with intelligence, economic aid, normalizing relations with the government (broken during the 1967 Six-Day War), and also supplying weapons.[17] President Ronald Reagan decided that the United States "could not afford to allow Iraq to lose the war to Iran", and that the United States "would do whatever was necessary and legal to prevent Iraq from losing the war with Iran."[18] President Reagan formalized this policy by issuing a National Security Decision Directive ("NSDD") to this effect in June, 1982.[19]

Lloyd's of London, a British insurance market, estimated that the Tanker War damaged 546 commercial vessels and killed about 430 civilian mariners. The largest of attacks were directed by Iran against Kuwaiti vessels, and on November 1, 1986, Kuwait formally petitioned foreign powers to protect its shipping. The Soviet Union agreed to charter tankers starting in 1987, and the United States offered to provide protection for tankers flying the U.S. flag on March 7, 1987 (Operation Earnest Will and Operation Prime Chance). Under international law, an attack on such ships would be treated as an attack on the U.S., allowing the U.S. to retaliate militarily. This support would protect ships headed to Iraqi ports, effectively guaranteeing Iraq's revenue stream for the duration of the war.

An Iraqi plane attacked the USS Stark (FFG 31), a Perry class frigate on May 17, killing 37 and injuring 21.[20] However, U.S. attention was focused on isolating Iran; it criticized Iran's mining of international waters, and sponsored UN Security Council Resolution 598, which passed unanimously on July 20, under which it skirmished with Iranian forces. In October 1987, the U.S. attacked Iranian oil platforms in retaliation for an Iranian attack on the U.S.-flagged Kuwaiti tanker Sea Isle City.[21]

On April 14, 1988, the frigate USS Samuel B. Roberts was badly damaged by an Iranian mine. U.S. forces responded with Operation Praying Mantis on April 18, the United States Navy's largest engagement of surface warships since World War II. Two Iranian ships were destroyed, and an American helicopter crashed with no apparent combat damage, killing the two pilots.[22]

In the course of these escorts by the U.S. Navy, the cruiser USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air Flight 655 with the loss of all 290 passengers and crew on July 3, 1988. The American government claimed that the airliner had been mistaken for an Iranian F-14 Tomcat, and that the Vincennes was operating in international waters at the time and feared that it was under attack. The Iranians, however, maintain that the Vincennes was in fact in Iranian territorial waters, and that the Iranian passenger jet was turning away and increasing altitude after take-off. U.S. Admiral William J. Crowe also admitted on Nightline that the Vincennes was inside Iranian territorial waters when it launched the missiles.[23] . The U.S. eventually paid compensation for the incident (to non Iranian passengers of the airliner), but never apologized.

According to an investigation conducted by ABC News' Nightline, decoys were set during the war by the US Navy inside the Persian Gulf to lure out the Iranian gunboats and destroy them, and at the time USS Vincennes shot down the Iranian airline, it was performing such an operation.

(wiki)

Excuse me?
http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm

The six million Jews and tens of millions of other civilians/soldiers that Hitler killed are a "tiny proportion"? Excuse me while I laugh.

Care to defend the quotes from the Bible I have in the first page of this thread?

Give me one incidence where radicals butchered a family or destroyed a mosque before the United States invasion.

Who is the one constantly shoving their religion in everybody's face? For someone to act like sandy, they must also defend their faith when under questioning. I don't hate sandy, I just think she's a closed-minded hypocrite who accepts nothing except her own narrow way of thinking. I abhor her black and white perspective of the world.

 

Guhr! Yuh got me, mister! LOL. Don't be ludicrous. Or maybe it was ze Jews?

Well, as the UN wasn't going to, I suppose one could argue they had to. Who takes up the call, traditionally, whenever the UN decides that nothing must be done?

As for your link on the tanker war and so forth: how does that relate to the evilness of Christianity and Christians?

I do excuse you. My religion doesn't say "turn the other cheek": but what the heck, it's a Thursday.

http://www.answers.org/history/hitquote.html

Well, I don't think the deaths of six million Jews on the orders of Hitler is very funny, personally. I suppose everyone else has a different sense of humour to me. Of course, as the above illustrates, Hitler's "Christianity" was a farce for public consumption. An actual not-really-theist! Cool.

I reject them utterly. So do Christians who accept that parable about stone-throwing. Care to defend Q 9:5? Q 4:11? 4: 34? 2:191?

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Give me one instance where the Americans made the Sunnis and Shiites attack each other.

Both of you.

 

It's funny...you act like proving 911 was done by Muslims is so easy, yet...I see no proof. Only humour.

Who put the US in charge? And besides, the war was still illegal. Are you saying the US should be able to break international laws based off their judgement?

You asked me to show how America funded and supported Iraq, so I did just that.

I read the link. Why doesn't your link explain these actual events? All your link shows is about five Hitler quotes I'm sure nobody has ever heard of. Mine show well-documented events Hitler went through, proving he was Christian.

a) Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria.

b) As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was carved with the monastery’s coat of arms bearing a swastika.)

c) Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church.

d) As a young man he was confirmed as a “soldier of Christ.” His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy: “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

e) Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus.

f) Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. In turn they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican. Hitler wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an excerpt: “The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.” Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party

g) Hitler worked CLOSELY with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society and supporting the church. The Church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education. This photo depicts Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin. It was taken On April 20, 1939, when Orsenigo celebrated Hitler’s birthday. The celebrations were initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) and became a tradition.

Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send “warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with “fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.” (If you would like to know more about the secret dealings of Hitler and the Pope I recommend you get a book titled: Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)

h) Due to Hitler’s involvement with the Church he began enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home. Many times Hitler addressed the church and promised that Germany would implement its teachings: “The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today.” –Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda “Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.” -Adolf Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the Catholic Church to National Socialism

Who said the deaths were funny? I certainly never did.

Start a thread right after me and Michael finish debating in the women in Islam thread.

Since you searched ten minutes on google and couldn't find me an instance for my request, I'll just say this. If you topple a government, and there are two different groups who want to control a land with nobody to stop them, then guess what? They are going to fight.

 

That's because your naivité is funny.

No one. Who says the US has to do anything the next time the UN decides to twiddle their thumbs?

You deny that Iraq was in violation?

But you didn't. You speculated. Where is all this gear? I was in the army once. We had American-made stuff. I think I recognize Yank year pretty easily. Where is it? I've never seen it, or heard of it. Their underwear?

Mine show well-documented events that prove he wasn't. It's not my fault you choose to selectively interpret the evidence.

Marx and Stalin were baptized too. Lots of converts from and to lots of things were baptized or said a shahada, or whatsoever else. What does it prove? Nothing. Your quotes are from the early period; mine from the later. Why was the issue of Nazi hostility to religion even such an issue that it had to be commented on?

Don't be ridiculous. The Persians and Ottomans - those perfect empires you believe in - were at war for ages.

And why can't these two different groups submit to the will of the masses? Ah! Because they believe they submit to the will of something else. That isn't justification.

 

If God made a mistake, doesn't that lead to the conclusion that he is not omnipotent?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CgvgjfwyPs

 

That's the strongest argument against religion, I feel. I'm not sure what I think about this directional revelation business.

 

Its so funny watching fundamentalist Christians bash fundamentalist Muslims, its incredible just how similar they are. In fact they have more in common with each other that the rest of us.

 

No, we don't. We have nothing in common. Christianity and Islam are like day and night.

This debate was about Christianity and Islam. Now. Today. Not pre-911. This isn't about history. It's about right now.

Born-again Christians are not terrorists. Radical Islamists are.
binLaden admitted 911 the day after it happened. No one doubted who was behind it.
The "peaceful" Muslims still deny this, I'm thinking, because it's so embarrassing. I'd be mortified if a true, born-again Christian killed 3,000 innocent people. I'd be apologizing all over the place. Not denying he did it.

Here are a few (hundred) radical Islamist attacks before the war:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2001-2003.htm

As far as violence in the Bible vs. violence in the Koran, I found an interesting little tidbit:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Bible-Quran-Violence.htm
It explains things better/more quickly than I can right now.

The real, true, peaceful Muslims who denounce evil/violence against innocent people need to speak up, denounce the violence, and stop the evil terrorists who are giving their religion a bad name.

 

I don't understand your embarrassment. Surely if someone claiming to be a born-again Christian did such a thing, he/she wouldn't be a real born-again Christian no?