Science and science methedology

The Land of Oz

Orion and Aqueous,

Let's see: name calling; dark suspicions; condesencion; self-projection; ignorance of the other; presumption of authority; humorlessness; hate. These you both must think you're entitled to because you're both self-appointed "high priests" of a cult you presume your own- education. If you were kinder because your professions (education?) made you happier, I would think you would be more persuasive. But you're both junkyard dogs. This tells me not that you're right but that you both should retire and play some golf or go to a beach. When I read what you science nazis scream at people, I can see why they don't want to go to school. Debating with you two is like Dorothy asking Oz not to douse her with wrath. That you should behave this way while safely behind screens also reminds me of him. Someday, I'm sure, a little dog will pull aside your mantles of respectability to show the even smaller gnomes behind. I know if either of you were in front of me we'd do more than talk- but not to worry, I'm off to greener pastures, even if in the Sahara!

 

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@Quarklet8 :
I loved the expression "science nazis", because that's what they've become. Millions of people worldwide are suffering because of their groupthink worldview which is holding humanity back from wonderful new advances that could benefit everyone.

 

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I think you mean Origin, who is a good source for help if you ever decide to enroll in a class in science.

I think I gave you a couple of shots at pulling your head out of your tail before I crossed that bridge. In any case, don't take it to heart. We're all wearing big boys and girls pants here. The idea is to converse freely, not to get bogged down in personalities.

Yeah I suspect you're a fundie. Am I close?

No more than you riding roughshod over all of science and academia. What's up with that? I always suspect it's either a religious gripe or something like being expelled from school. Getting warmer?

How so? Origin and I both enjoy intelligent discussion. I guess you'd have to expand on what you mean.

I'm quite familiar with Origin so presumably this means ignorance of you. But how so? You started taking pot shots at the get-go. I think that paints a very vivid picture of you. If you'd like to Photoshop that picture, feel free. How about starting by cluing us in about how you got that big chip on your shoulder.

There's not much more than a high school level of education needed to address the level of authority here. I mean you set the bar pretty low!

Was your OP a joke? I took it to you were riding into town with guns blazing. I reached for my 12 gauge and loaded it with some essential facts. Seems like it blew you right off your saddle.

Not to put words in Origin's mouth, but I think it’s safe to say we both are turned off by anti-science pot-shotters. It's not a hatred of the person but of the deed . . . and the school of thought . . . wait they didn't go to school . . . let's just say 'the mentality' that derives pleasure by disparaging the more noble side of human nature -- such as the desire to develop oneself through academic studies. And yes it's safe to say that we both despise anything that glorifies ignorance. I guess you could say knowledge abhors a vacuum. And the floor of my freshman crash pad.

There's nothing to presume once you've passed the exams and collected the diplomas. After that it's off to the races. I can't say for sure but I surmise that Origin has done well for himself, and I'm not complaining. . .but what of it? The allusion to 'high priest' sounds very Fundamentalist. I notice you haven't answered the mail on that, so I'll assume that's your real motivation. The ability to land some decent position or win contracts after years of cracking the books is far from a priesthood. It's very grassroots. You should try it sometime. It will cure you of all your superstitions.

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Not sure what that's supposed to mean. You can't be persuaded because you are locked into some prison you've built around yourself and as far as you're concerned you can't get out. But really you can. Just drop the act and get real. Surely there is some day you can remember when you were in a classroom and it absolutely blew your mind. So when did you brick all of that--and why?

Hah. You've just run out of insults. That's pretty lame. But mild, so I'll fade that.

I assure you, whenever I'm messing around at Sci, I'm not working. Sorry, golf is way too slow for me. I'm a ways from the beach or I'd take you up on that. Maybe the Jacuz. Ah, yeah—thass more like it. Now what? You going to explain your gripe or just leave it hanging in the air?

No doubt the inability to be self-critical makes it harder to take critical advice from teachers. I suppose O & I are reminding you of hard times in that dept. Sorry, but I suppose we each make the beds we sleep in. May I suggest you come to a board (anywhere not just here) with a sincere desire to improve yourself and start asking for some advice. That or seek out ex-teachers, classmates, friends or family. Hell, go see a counselor. Find out how to get back in the game, because right now I think you're probably not doing so well. You sound like you're in bad shape, anyway.

But wasn't it worth it? No more crowing about the problem. Besides, you haven't offered any debate. You're just grousing.

Again: you opened with the salvos. What did you expect? Certainly not to be carried in on a featherbed like the Queen of Sheba.

Hah! When you get over whatever is bugging you you'll discover that there is no mantle; you lose it when you grow some self-respect.

If you, me and Origin were in a bar we'd do no more than show you some formulas and suggest how to get your life on track. He could probably give you all the steps to the fermentation process for whatever you're drinking.

Whatever you do, stay focused on developing yourself. Remember, it's never too late to go back to school.

 

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Where do you people come from? Has the Southern Baptist Convention hired a bunch of mercenary sock puppets to play "Trolling Science For Jesus?" What does that pay anyway - a penny a word, plus a Bible that says "Word." when you open it? I mean, literally, "Word."

Seriously: Wussup?

 

Here's something I picked-up from your post #24 to quarklet8 as an example:

I *do* have a knowledge of first principles. The very first principle of Newton's law of universal gravitation omits the possibility of exotic matter existing within the earth, stars and galaxy centers which would enable an additional force of attraction on the plane of rotation. This is where it's all gone wrong. He also omitted a mechanism for the gravity force. The spinning Archimedes screw is the only one possible. Therefore the mainstream groupthink is erroneous, due to the alternative idea above being able to solve the spiral galaxy rotation problem amongst others. You're unable to see the error of your ways, just as the groupthink of the Nazi party was unable to see the error of their ways. It isn't a nice comparison perhaps, but from the viewpoint of people who instinctively know that there are fundamental problems with modern cosmology and astrophysics, the consequences of this tunnel vision is quite similar.

 

Knowledge of first principles would include being able to enunciate some basic rule that sets the goalposts for a discussion like this. You've just done the opposite. You've just told us there are no rules, you get to make them up as you go.

A first principle of Geometry is that you don't jump to conclusions. How about something in the way of proof. Can you even do a proof.

What makes you say that? Have you read Newton's Principia Mathematica? How much do actually know about the subject? 7th grade? We get a lot of that for some reason. Either that or it's a few dropouts with 30 user accounts working for the fundies or just killing time.

And that would be because Earth is shaped like a screw?

Then stop thinking that way.

You mean you know of a galaxy that's violating the Universal Law of Gravitation? Which one. How about Kepler's Laws--any violating them? You'll need to tie Kepler to Newton to begin to understand what you are asking.

You haven't shown anything I've said to be incorrect.

So to you a Nazi is anyone who encourages you to study and better yourself? So you're a Republican. No wait--you said amongst--so you're a Tory then?

Before you can walk you gotta crawl. So far you've produced nothing but banter. If you ever took a math class in your life, then supposedly you've learned how to write a proof. So go for it.

 

Nope, that is not true. Newton's equation of universal graviation has mass terms, the term says nothing about the type of matter that has that mass. It does not matter if the mass is from atoms, molecules, a black hole or dark matter.

 

The equation states that all matter emits the force of gravity equally in all directions. It doesn't allow for more gravity on the plane of rotation of a galaxy for example, which is a logical conclusion now that we can see spiral galaxies. Newton wasn't privy to this knowledge in the 1700's. If he was, I think he would have thought some more.

 

Can you write that equation for us?

 

common_sense_seeker, what form of "logic" draws that "conclusion"?
Are centrifugal and centripetal forces weaker or stronger than the force of gravity?
Does the speed, velocity or period of rotation or total mass of a galaxy affect its apparent shape or form?

BTW - if I already knew the answers - I would not ask the questions.

 

Newton's law of universal gravitation

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This is only logical to you, my young padawan. You know of course that the earth is sort of a squashed sphere - the diameter of the earth at the equater is larger than the diameter from pole to pole. Do you think that is due to gravity being anisotropic, or can you imagine anything else that might cause that?

Hint 1 - think of the spiral galaxy.
Hint 2 - it has nothing to do with giant hyraxes.

 

No, you're wrong. MOND professors also think that there is something else going on on the plane of spiral galaxy rotation. I've been saying that gravity can be anisotropic from the beginning of my research btw:

 

You said:

Do you see your error?

 

It's the same thing. You're the one that has a mental block. "Every point mass attracts every single other point mass by a force pointing along the line intersecting both points" is the same as "all matter emits the force of gravity equally in all directions".

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The spinning Archimedes screw particle is the only mechanism that can produce the force of attraction, whilst being emitted from the host object. Even Newton himself admitted that his "action at a distance" within a vacuum was inadequate.

 

My question was whether you can detect a difference in the statement you posted from wiki vs your belief that mass emits force. Have you understood my question yet, and do you see where your error lies?

 

No. We'll get to that.

My mind is certainly open to first principles, which is all that's at stake here. How are you doing in that dept?

No, it's your injection of "force" which changes the meaning. The blue lines in you diagram are not lines of force. There can be no force until a second mass appears on the scene. And then the line of force (or tension) is only directed between the two masses, not omidirectionally. You are right to have shown the omnidirectional lines, but you are wrong to call them force. When we get to the bottom of what they are we'll be past one hurdle that's forming your mental block. There's still another one beyond that -- it's the big one - but let's get over this one first.

Besides the fact that this has nothing to do with what we're talking about (no screw is present) there are many other sources of "force of attraction". The are all of the forces that bind subparticles into particles, particles into atoms, atoms into molecules, molecules into materials and then at the macro level we have bulk magnetic and electrostatic attraction as well as bulk effects like those which produces adhesives and elastic materials. Just about any machine can be configured to produce a "force of attraction". The screw isn't even the first one to pick. There are levers, inclined planes, springs, and so forth. In any case it's irrelevant since this has nothing to do with nature. None of these are present. And there certainly is no screw. Having said that I would encourage you to learn a little vector math. You will discover the right-hand rule, which addresses the screw in terms of force. You may have some vague notion of a vector cross product playing in your mind here. This ought to be developed so you can reach a fuller understanding of what you are trying to express. There are numerous screw effects in physics which are known as cross-products. At some point if you want some guidance on that, feel free to ask. There are many folks here who can assist.

It was certainly adequate in solving Kepler's puzzlement over the nature of planetary orbits. At some point you should try to learn about this too. It will help you gain a deeper insight into what's on your mind. As to Newton's dissatisfaction, suffice it to say he would have been elated to have access to Einstein's explanation of general relativity.

How are you at math? Will it just make your eyes glaze over if I post some concepts in equation form, or do you need text only to follow me? I have it in mind to start with the equation for force and get to those blue lines that are on your mind.

 

The best science is done with an open mind

Through theories and Sherlock Homes like detective work

 

Wise words river. Those with closed minds and those who only dictate the mainstream science dogma without considering the merits of the Modification Of Newtonian Dynamics are unwitting sci-nazis. Even when clear evidence is finally established into the mainstream media, sci-nazis will continue to block their ears and shout the blinkered dogma which they have been indoctrinated with, as if injected with it from childhood. Eventually, even these die-hards will be overcome by the shear number of new believers and a golden new age will begin.

 

Have you figured out what your blue lines are yet?