Science of Water Memory?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by KUMAR5, Nov 15, 2020.

  1. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    1,221
    Hello,

    "Water memory defies conventional scientific understanding of physical chemistry knowledge and is generally not accepted by the scientific community" Wikipedia

    It relates to presense of information of active substances in homeooathic remedies in higher solutions/potencies.

    I just want to know, whether it is actually tested and then rejected or just rejected becsuse it defies conventional scientific inderstsnding as on that date?

    I do not see posdibility of former reason for its rejection.

    Since it relates to the understsnding of science, I posted it here for discussions.

    Best wishes.
     
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  3. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, homeopathy is complete garbage. Taking a homeopathic 'medicine' has the same effect as drinking a glass of water.
     
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  5. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Still flogging the same dead horse, are we?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    You were on about this nonsense back in 2017, in this thread: http://www.sciforums.com/threads/static-energy-electricity.159824/page-3

    In post 53 of that thread I referred you to an article pointing put that water molecules lose any particular orientation they may have within about 50 femtoseconds. (A femtosecond is a thousandth of a picosecond which is a millionth of a microsecond.) Here is another link to it: https://skepticalinquirer.org/2011/05/the-memory-of-water/

    So yes, the memory of water has been researched and, no, it has none.

    But in fact, you are wasting our time because the very same Wiki article you are quoting from details, at some length, a number of investigations into the supposed memory of water, all of which came up with nothing - just as would be expected from known physics and chemistry.

    So if you have read that article, you already know the answer to the question you are asking us. So why even ask?

    Forget it: it's junk pseudoscience, peddled to the ignorant and desperate to make money out of them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
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  7. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    No I have a different thouggt. I think, it can not be denied in science. I practically experienced that information of active substance can still be there even beyond Avogodro number dilution.
    A syrup known as Roo of Zaa, quite aromatic, used by us. Its empity glass bottle was used as water bottle after well cleaning. To my surprise, smell n diluted taste of this syrup did not gone even after 100 or more time water change and cleaning for after many months. How?
     
  8. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    I am trying to change this odd understsnding eithin the scope of scientific understsbding. I do not feel, memory of water was actually or practically tested but appear it was just theoretically rejected.
     
  9. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Either you cleaned it badly or you imagined the smell, because you want to believe in homeopathy - or you are lying.

    That's why in science we insist on reproducible observations, not just unverifiable anecdotes from people with a vested interest, like you.
     
  10. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    11,205
    Now you really are lying.

    You admit you have read the Wiki article on water memory. As I pointed out in post 3, that article describes several practical tests that have been done. Yet you claim to "feel" that no testing has been done.

    What bullshit.
     
  11. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    1,221
     
  12. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    No. It is fact. I am also suspicious in higher potencies of homeooathic remedies but subject to possibility in view of its mass and well distributed presence. There is a scientific possibility to it so I can not be mistsken. Just think.
     
  13. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    16,729
    Rather than dismiss your arguments, I will grant your desire to apply science to your ideas.


    The answer to your question is in your own statements.

    1.
    Since you empirically observed the smell and taste of the syrup in the water, you can conclude that some concentration of the syrup still, in fact, existed in the bottle.

    You can thus conclude your method of cleaning is flawed - since it is, in fact, leaving residue (as empirically observed).

    What you have not done - and are instead taking on faith - is verify by independent test that your cleaning method is sound.


    I will bet my pay cheque you are assuming that each titration operates ideally to reduce the concentration by the nominal fraction, and naively projecting that down to zero.

    This does not take into account the fact that aromatic molecules tend to stick to things, such as the glass walls of the bottle (inside and out), the cork, etc.



    2.
    Since taste and smell are subjective qualia, I don't have any idea how you can possibly rule out bias, preconception and psychological effects fouling your experiment. In other words, I challenge that: the "memory" is not in the water, it's in your head. Now let's see you use science to demonstrate otherwise.

     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
  14. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    1,221
    Thanks. You have tried to touch the sense. Washing was done as normal home washing with water without applying any shop, detergent powder or other substance. Whatever was there but still seriel dilutions had happened which should had remóved all quantities beyond sub-Avagdro number which had not observed practically. You can compare this type of dilution with homeooathic way of dilution where bottlels are also not cleaned by using any chemical. My main concern is, if sny quantity in moleqular form can exist beyond Avogdro, by any scientific way, how water memory was rejected straightaway? If they would had actually tested the water after dilutions, they shoild had found some substsnce other than pure water in minute quantity.

    Here minimum quantity matter, may it just be few molecules to justify, water been tested in water memory experiment do had some other substsnce than only water. In other substsnce, it can be molecules of active substsnce, shedded particles of glass from glass wall etc.
     
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  15. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    16,729
    1. I'm assuming, by "beyond Avogadro", you mean "less than one molecule".

    2. Who said any quantity exists below that? Obviously, since molecules were detected, there were more than zero molecules in the water.


    Regardless, the concept of water having memory is irrelevant. If the substance was detected then it follows directly that the substance was there to be detected.
     
  16. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, I see, scientific possibilty of molecular presence in lieu of information of active substances along with shedded molecules of glass in higher dilution is there which science prople or skeptics deny in theory. Hence I think it is mostly not seen in practical in water memory assesment by scientific community.
    Let me not make more suspense. Molecules of active substances can always present in all dilutions due to a scientific understsnfing i.e. due to Adsorption of active substances on glass walls of bottles ehich shed slowly by sgressive shaking by
    Homeopathic remedies potentization process using same glass bottle in every subsequent dilution.
    Since, there is no other possibility under current status of science(future can not say), it can only be a possibility.
     
  17. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    16,729
    I'm afraid I cannot decipher what you are trying to day. To clarify, use smaller, but more numerous, sentences.


    Regardless, homeopathy still fails even given all that, since all substances designed for treatment have a minimum therapeutic dose to be effective. These trace amounts used in homeopathy - no matter how they get there - are far below therapeutic levels.
     
  18. river

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    17,307
    Look up Water Research . And Memory .
     
  19. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes this is also a concern. But I am not going into this contraversy. They take lower doses eork by stimulation of physiological activities i.e. somewhat hormesis biphasic effect.
    You see, virus is a much bigger molecule than these molecules. In quantity term it is a minute quantity which has disturbed the whole world. So stimulation effect in body can also matter much.
     
  20. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    16,729
    Sorry, what controversy, exactly?

    I'm sorry, I don't know what you're trying to say here.

    True, but what do viruses have to do with the topic?

    I'm sorry, I don't know what you're trying to say here.
     
  21. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    1,221
    No I am not lying. They either denied theoretically based on that time understanding of science or based experiments to find out physiological or therapeutic effects. But I made a concern, when sledded molecules of both active substance due to adsorption and of glass walls can exist in higher dilutions, how they rejected water memory theory that it is nothing other than same water? Neither in scientific theory nor in testing experiments for presence of other molecules in higher dilution can be justified. I am not talking about therapeutic or physiological effects in this topic because it is a different subject.

    Just confirm, can sheded adsorbed molecules of active substances and of glass wall molecules as a result of homeopathic potentization process be present or not in higher potencies ?
     
  22. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    20,612
    It is woo. It has not passed ANY scientific validation.
    Not.
     
  23. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    1,221
    About possibility of therapeutic effects from low quanitity of active substance in homeopathic remedies. Here, I am just trying to look or show that minute molecular quantity of active substance and of glass wall sheded during potentization/dilution process are always there even in higher potencies/dilutions. It is a major cause of concern about homeopathic remedies.


    [quotes]I'm sorry, I don't know what you're trying to say here.


    True, but what do viruses have to do with the topic?


    I'm sorry, I don't know what you're trying to say here.[/QUOTE]

    Sorry, this is other side not related to OP i.e. possibility of therapeutic or physiological effects by higher potencies of homeopathic remedies. We can discuss it later in some different topic.
     

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