Science of Water Memory?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by KUMAR5, Nov 15, 2020.

  1. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    No.
     
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  3. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    Honestly, I also faced bads, evils and odds. Uncalculated and unintentional. I do not know who done these? You can name them evil spirit act. H, C, O, H2O etc are very important in our daily life tool for good n bads. If anyone named them in some god or angel or devil name, depending upon their good n bad properties, it will just be language change not sense change.

    Dose is dose, whethet of mstter or of energy.

    Don't we have EM wave justification of voice? Then how radio or TV trsnsmission happen?
     
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  5. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    You can call them sausages, too. That doesn't mean they are sausages.
    Of course. But what if someone told you that water was critical to your life, and by drinking a bottle of air that once contained water you'd be hydrated? Would you accept that, and start drinking air?
    No. No, it's not.
    No. Voice is sound. Sound is not EM.
     
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  7. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    You can face evil spirits daily. A person, bad to you, is a devil for you and your intersctions with him are evil spirits. It is just langusge change not sense change. Thogh we can alwsys open to supernaturals becoming natural by new understsndings.

    Repeated avoidance. It is less water not nil water. Even moisture is also water.
    Under which fundamental interaction sound and its transmission is classified?
    What does it mean?
    "In telephony, the usable voice frequency band ranges from approximately 300 to 3400 Hz.[1] It is for this reason that the ultra low frequency band of the electromagnetic spectrum between 300 and 3000 Hz is also referred to as voice frequency, being the electromagnetic energy that represents acoustic energy at baseband" from wikipedia
     
  8. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    Hello all,.

    Sorry but are we not deviating ftom the topic subject?

    Pls limit just to justifying molecular presence of active n other substances in higher dilutions.

    AND How it was not traced in varification of water memory experiment.

    Thank you.
     
  9. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    KUMAR5:

    On the one hand, you say that it's just a form of language to say that a person acts like he is possessed by evil spirits. It's like you don't actually believe that evil spirits exist as separate things. But then you suggest "supernaturals becoming natural", which sounds to me like you're saying that you think the evil spirits could be real after all.

    So which is it? As you are now, do you believe in supernatural evil spirits, or don't you? If you do, tell me why you believe it.

    Sound is a pressure wave in a medium of some kind - solid, liquid or gas.
     
  10. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    KUMAR5:

    I've only just seen this thread. I'd like to respond to your opening post.

    Yes, it is true that homeopathic ideas are not accepted in science.

    There are no substances in homeopathic remedies of sufficient dilution, other than water. There's also no scientific evidence that water retains any "memory" of any substances that used to be in it before dilution.

    It has been thoroughly tested. Homeopathic remedies don't work, other than by mechanisms such as the placebo effect.
     
  11. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    KUMAR5:

    Are you are user of homeopathic remedies yourself?

    Are you a maker of homeopathic remedies?

    What is your own experience of using or making these things?
     
  12. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Ooh. Here's one:

    Lots of possibilities occur to me. Maybe you didn't clean the bottle properly. Maybe you had the syrup in your nose or mouth from some other recent source, so there was still remnant of that syrup. Maybe you just imagined the smell and taste, because it was familiar to you and you wanted homeopathy to be real.

    I guess the important thing to say is that while this experienced many have strengthened your own pre-existing belief in homeopathy, it does nothing to make me think that any mysterious "water memory" effect exists. Your story is just one data point, and an anecdotal one at that. As scientific evidence, it is worthless. I am sorry to tell you.

    I'm not sure what you're saying, here. How are you measuring "potency"? What's the relevance of the "adsorption and resorotion scope"? What is that, exactly?

    For homeopathy, that's irrelevant. There, you're talking about solutions that have been diluted until only water remains (i.e. no other molecules present). Homeopaths make the claim that those pure-water solutions somehow have active properties based on the substance that used to be in the water, before dilution. Moreover, they make the dubious claim that the smaller the amount of additive in the water, the more potent the effect.

    Unfortunately for the homeopaths, there seems to be no good evidence for the first claim, while the second claim is disproven by testing.

    But homeopathy is like cutting the tree down and down until there is nothing left, not even the seeds, then claiming you can still somehow grow a new tree without any of the old tree present. That would be an extraordinary claim, which would require good evidence for anybody with sense to believe it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  13. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    Hello James.
    Greetings!

    You can take it like it. As I feel under today's state of science. Sense exist but supernatural thing do not exist. Nature exists super nature not. When sense or science of anything so taken as supernatural is understood by new understanding it become natural or normal. Alike it, sense of evil sprit i.e. bad or evil acts exists but not evil sprit as anticipated.


    It should be one kind of force. Mechanical wave. But I want to know, under which fundamental/force/interaction it is classified?
    Don't it come within the scope of fundamental force?
     
  14. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    KUMAR5:

    Thanks for your reply.

    You're telling me what the current state of belief is in the scientific community, or something like that, and how is is possible that in future people generally might come to accept the supernatural as normal. That's all fine, but I asked what you, KUMAR5, currently believe, right now. Can you answer that question, please?

    Should be?

    For the propagation of everyday sound waves, like the ones your ears use to hear the world around you, the most important force is the electromagnetic force. Why do you ask?

    Of course it does. As far as science is aware, there are only four fundamental forces. So far, there's no compelling reason to postulate any additional fundamental forces.
     
  15. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks.


    Yes but science is always open to new understandings.


    Yes it was anticipated by science community. I can't say it was theoretical certification or perceived certification or practical testing or mistake. Adsorption and desorption of molecules on bottle glass wall along with shedded particles of glass were not taken into account in higher dilution.
    I also observed practically by using an quite aromatic syrup as water bottle. To my surprise, smell of that syrup didn't gone inspite of more than 30-50 refilling. It made me to think about possibility of adsorption.

    However, I do accept there can be a mistake from homeopath's side by opting wrong type of higher dilution which should have caused ass types of odd and variations. Here I am just looking for any molecular presence, neither sufficient dose quantity nor its efficacy.


    Yes It is anticipated by science and skeptics but things can always change. Probably but mostly, no information presence anticipation in higher potencies shouls now change due to this absorption theory.

    Depending on the nature of agents, cost, risk benefit ratio, homeopathy and modern concentrated drugs can not be studied at par to each other.
     
  16. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    I am user of another kind with similar theory i.e 12 tissue remedies since long back. I have observed these are effective as said. But that do have molecular presence. Sometimes I also used homeopathic higher dilutions which were confusing. Therfore I am trying to understand it better.

    I am not maker.
     
  17. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    KUMAR5

    You're saying that maybe some syrup molecules stuck to the insides of the bottle and survived there despite multiple washings of the bottle, to an extent that, later on, some of the molecules of the syrup could still be detected by smell or taste?

    Okay. All that tells me is that your efforts to clean the bottle weren't good enough to remove all the syrup residue. That doesn't support any homeopathic claim, as far as I can tell.

    Okay. So you just want to see if residue can remain in water following repeated washings of a container.

    In that case, I suggest that you set up an appropriately controlled experiment in which you wash similar containers to different extents, or different numbers of times. Use an objective detection technique for the solute. You might come up with some useful data showing the extent of solute retention. Your hypothesis is that adsorption is responsible for the retention of the solute. Do you have any quantitative theory of how much adsorption should occur, that you could compare against experimental results?

    You keep using that word "potency". What does "potency" mean, in this context?

    I don't understand. Are you claiming that it is impossible to evaluate the medical efficacy of homopathic remedies against conventional medical remedies? I don't see why that should be impossible.

    I don't know what 12 tissue remedies is/are.

    So they are some kind of chemical medicine?

    You used homeopathic dilutions for what purpose?
     
  18. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    I think, I washed much more than what homeopaths do for preparing the remedies. Moreover they mix one part of solutes or previous dilution, I have even not used that, Still impression of syrup is observed. Anyone can easily try it by using some highly aromatic(to recognize easily due to our comparatively low smelling power) syrup or liquid bottle

    Let us first endorse this possibility in science.


    No but for it different standards are to be decided. However there are million of live evidences are there with homeopaths who are using it since long back persistently. So we should not deny new understanding in science though it may not be in interest of homeopaths due to fear of hijecking by modern pharma industry.

    Higher the dilution, higher the potency for stimulation. It is so claimed by homeopaths.

    All need to be either energy medicines or chemical medicines. Energy storage as of now in higher dilutions looks impossible so we may have to base on chemicals in low quantity.[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 3, 2020
  19. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    I believe in that which is either logical or scientifically valid. Rest I leave on time to either bring its science or end it in itself. Moreover, It is not a good thing even if its science is known, so why I should bother about it? If it come true, we will adopt its remedy to deal as science will suggest. I may be true skeptic.


    Means, Sound waves will be classified under electromagnetism fundamental force? Okay? Some other poster opposed it.
     
  20. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    http://www.worldofhomeopathy.com/the-12-tissue-remedies-of-schussler/

    Should be in low quantity subject to you endorse adsorption theory possibility.

    !2 tissue remedies,for day to day disorder. Not for serious ones. For these I prefer moden system. I respect all
    valid and good understanding.
     
  21. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    You think.

    At best, that would just add more anecdotal evidence. What you need is to do a well-controlled experiment, as I suggested.

    I just did that! I suggested a controlled experiment you could do. Are you interested? I thought you said you were studying this rigorously.

    Anecdotal evidence, you mean?

    I am aware of people drinking homeopathic preparations of poisons and suffering no ill effects. According to homeopathy, those poisons should become more potent as they become more diluted, so after many dilutions they should certainly be fatal. Why is it that they are not?

    Great! We are in agreement. You just need to do the relevant studies to show that homeopathy is effective after all, thus refuting all the previous controlled studies that showed it was no better than placebo. Then I'll be the first in line to congratulate you on your addition to scientific knowledge. You'll probably win prizes and be famous! It sounds great. When will you start the controlled tests?

    I have now asked you several times what "potency" means in this context. Why don't you answer me?

    What does it mean to have a "higher potency for stimulation"? How is that tested? What controlled tests confirm it?

    What is an "energy medicine"?

    What does energy storage have to do with medicine? I don't understand.
     
  22. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Good to hear. So no supernatural beliefs, then.

    Welcome to sciforums, fellow skeptic. You will find many friends here.

    They must have got it wrong. I'm glad we sorted that out.
     
  23. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Thanks for the link.

    These salts are supposed to address a "deficiency" in the body, are they not? How would using a low quantity help? The site you link to recommends a 1-part-in-10,000 dilution in water. What scientific evidence is there that this helps?

    Also, on your link I couldn't find a scientific explanation of these "deficiencies" that these salts are supposed to help with. What controlled tests have been done to establish that these salts are necessary and that homeopathic amounts can cure the "deficiencies" and improve health?

    What kinds of "disorders"? How are these disorders diagnosed?

    I'd have to see the scientific studies. I assume you have some that demonstrate validity and good understanding?
     

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