Discussion in 'Religion' started by Jan Ardena, Apr 8, 2018.
It's a great thread.
Get over it.
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Are you saying that to take something someone has said out of context and then present it to give weight to ones world view is dishonest Jan?
Well of course I know it is dishonest.
Now that you can see what I did here perhaps you could think about your original post and understand why folk are suggesting your approach was dishonest.
I know you were being a little tricky and playful just as I was being a little tricky and playful but we are both nevertheless left open to a reasonable critism that our approach was dishonest.
I hope now you are able to examine your op and perhaps admit as I have admitted my guilt that you are guilty as so many have suggested of taking something out of context and representing it to support your world view.
And in so doing you could show that there is at least one decent theist out there who seeks to avoid hypocracy.
More than a little desparate Jan but what else could I do to get you to look at your op and see it for what it is...does it not go that if you sin you should recognise your sin and seek forgiveness from God? You can do that but it would be decent to for you to recognise your sin which I am sure you are now better placed to do and seek forgiveness from the members here who have pointed out your trickyness ...
I am sorry I was tricky with you Jan will you please forgive me?
I remain unconvinced.
Yes and I speak the truth.
Is repetition of the truth a problem for you Jan?
So all my good intentions that I can not implement come from a God who could implement my good intentions but does not implement my good intentions.
So God has the knowledge that things need improvement and gets me and others to realise things could be better but sits on his hands and allows millions to die in war and suffering to continue ...
You have to be joking right.
The question is very very simple ...why does this alledged creator of the universe let children die horrible prolonged deaths proceeded by unimaginable suffering pain anguish and fear when by all accounts he could save that child.
Why does God perform a miracle occassionally and yet fail to step in and save that poor child suffering at the hands of some fiend.
Well if your unsupported claim that there is a God is true we can determine he is either ineffectual or simply does not care on the one hand or we could wonder if your claim has any basis in reality...but the deaths and suffering continue which is bad enough but then to have to listen to stupid theists defending this God is absolutely tiresome...Come on now please recognise the flaws in this crippling delusion you embrace.
Thats a cop out.
Your creator has the power to change things and a great change would be to fix things.
It is a simple thing for a God to do ... and no doubt if there was a god the world would be a far better place.
I have to accept that the world is godless but I wont accept folk like you proclaiming there is a God that cares about humans as such a claim is nonsence.
The picture you paint of their relationship with God suggests that in most aspects they are...they have free will but they dont...flip flop...tell me how do you fit in free will and prophesy into the story and ignore the obvious inconsistency.
I bet you dont even see the problem.
Yet children suffer and God pops out the occassional miracle. .. I can not believe an intelligent person such as you can accept such illogical nonsense and that points to the greatest cruelty of humans that of indoctrinating a child and destroying their ability to be rational.
I find it alarming.
Rubbish...absolute rubbish which ignores the fact that you are in a discussion with an atheist advocating a better deal for animals.
Cant you see how your run out lines demonstrate that you simply do not think...
Cant you see how crazy your statement is?
The good book lays out the licience for animal cruelty....dominion over the animals mean anything to you Jan?
Did you know you can beat your wife with a stuck so long as it is of no greater diameter than your finger.
Great place to get your morals...how can you no see the crazy situation that has you supporting this insane morality on the basis that you need god for your morality.
You are intelligent you can do better yet you dont...ask yourself why.
Ask yourself why you defend so much that is just simply wrong and immoral.
You do so because you dont think...you are inteligent but you dont think...how can that be...sleep on that.
An atheist has better morals because they can think about what is good or bad whereas a theist has a list cherry picked from a book full of immorality...kill your neighbour for working on the sabbath. ..oh I dont like that one so I will skip that rotten cherry...mmm stoning gays..yes thats a good one...hang on what if I am gay..no leave that one out...vant you see it is you who builds your morality and not something that comes from some supernatural entity.
What you dont not understand is the morality for all people come from their personal choice of what is or is not moral..it does not come from the bible but endures despite the bible...heck if you took the god commands in the bible for your morality you would be commiting murder on a regular basis.
Morality does not come from religion or belief in God.
More unsupported illogical rubbish.
Your morality is your construction put together by consciously ignoring the greater part of scripture.
You really should realise that what you are and who you are is your construction and that you are a good person notwithstanding the indoctrination you have suffered to make you believe you are bad and cant manage except by believing if not for god you would be nothing...your belief in god takes you close to nothing... a mere shell of a human unable to accept personal responsibility and dwell on fairy tales to ease you fear of death and insignificance.
Stand up and be a honerable human ...throw off the crippling superstition and tired appologies for an unsupported view of reality that takes away everything about being a human.
We can think but you make irational thoughts your master.
Your fears are unfounded...there is no hell and there is no judgement.
Can you lay with your head on your pillow and go to sleep knowing you lie to yourself...you only tepeat the lies you have been told but please break the cycle and stop lieing to yourself...you really must do better.
You are a good person and need to realise that your feelings of inadequacy were put there to ensure you remain a captive of delussion.
The only sin is that of allowing the lies to continue.
Original sin is nonsense and all that is associated with that concept is nonsense...and the story plot turns on original sin...nonsense to make you feel that you are inadequate and less than you could be...a shell of a human so non thinking the poweres who rules you know you are now easy to manage.
You are an intelligent person cant you see how your ability to actually think has been destroyed.
I pity you Jan and although I dont know you I hate to see you the victim of fear and superstition and I sincerely wish you are able to escape from the prison such superstition has kept you in...Think just stop and think...your morality is not god given it exists despite the influence of scripture...it is you who choose not to kill sinners...it is your good self that makes you who you are.
Take what morality you can find where ever you can..I have a longer list than any theist so feel free to borrow any of mine...it is you who knows what is right...I take stuff from JC and all sorts of sources and realise morality is ones own construction.
Its the only way...else start killing all the folk the good book calls for...is that the morality you want...sleep on it.
And so many good things...ALEX REPLIES.
Yes but the bad things remain and need to be addressed and making your throw away statement fails to address anything that must be addressed.
It is that attitude that sees raping priests shuffled off some place to continue their evil deeds rather than facing the problem and dealing with it in an acceptable manner.
And dont give religion credit that should go to the good people who work thinking they do gods work...and realise that they are doing gods work...work that he should be doing but does not...sleep on that.
You cant ignore the problem and claim to be a good person.
In the same way, there are loving compassionate people out there who would risk losing their own life, if it means saving lives.
Of course there are but that is not the point.
My point is simply you could think that this alledged creator of the universe with all his alleged inteligence could do it better.
Why intervene to save one person in an earthquake and yet lets others die.
Clearly if there is an alledged creator he should have thought it though a little longer and rather than giving us a perfect after life go to the main game...you know how it is to be in the after life..its all that I suggest would be good right now and even has humans as little robots all good and nice and seemingly without that precious free will. ..do you see the problem ...look at the problem long and hard and resist the temptation to jump in and defend the god story to give time for rational assessment to take its course.
Sleep on it.
Because people can be unforgivably self-centered, and egocentric.
Yes I have been there.
But fortunately I am a very different person.
I accept ugly people and dumb people ... everyone is more than their appearance.
I respect not only other humans who are clearly different to me but I respect the smallest of creatures...each day I try and save some little creature..a fly that cant get outside, an ant that has fallen in the sink that cant get out ... folk think I am crazy but I cup my hands around a mozzie and let it go outside...if I can be so compassionate why cant your god come close?
I am real thats why.
Being an atheist has you on an equal footing with other humans and other creatures...theist supports the irrational belief that it is all here for humans...a gift from god...sad dellusional elite nonsense that needs to be thrown out so humans can elevate themselves to realise that it is all not for them.
The notion that the universe and all that is in it has been cteated for humans does untold damage...how many species have disappeared how many trees cut down without respect. ..oh you either see it or you dont but theists elite view of their position truly sickens me.
More to come maybe....
You'll have to explain that some more, I'm afraid.
Can you give another example or two, perhaps, of knowledge that is gained by people on account of it being "natural to the human being"?
What else do we know exists in the outside world on account of it being "natural to the human being"?
Where does this "natural" knowledge come from, ultimately? Is "God put it there" the only explanation you have to offer, or can you give a "natural" explanation?
Mere repetition does not advance your argument.
Please give some examples, preferably ones relatable to the innate knowledge of God that you claim we all have.
How does being alive give one innate knowledge?
There's no need for God to have made me in order for me to ask questions, as far as I can see. If you think only God could have made me, you'll need to explain why.
Like what? You didn't answer my question.
Are you planning on sharing any of these mysterious classical arguments with your readers?
The point is that you have not put forward a single "classical argument" for God yet, or anything else that is persuasive.
I see. This is how theists argue, is it? By refusing to make any actually points, instead offering up only repeated unevidenced assertions?
When I google it, I find the following three arguments, mainly:
1. The Cosmological argument.
2. The Ontological argument.
3. The Teleological argument.
All three have been refuted endlessly by philosophers.
Are these what you find convincing?
I see. It was just another empty assertion from you. I expected as much. I keep catching you out, don't I?
Perhaps you should ask directly: would you consider X evidence of God? Would you consider Y evidence of God? That should help clear things up for you, if you find previous responses insufficient.
Maybe a good place to start would be for you to put forward the main evidences that convince you of God. Then we can see whether those would satisfy the atheists here.
I'm supposed to present your arguments for you? What an interesting notion. Here's an idea: make an effort, Jan.
What did I get wrong? Are you saying that you now hold that you believe in God due to evidence?
If so, that would be another flip-flop on your part.
Yes, Jan. The subject matter of theism and its refutation is God. Merely discussing a thing does not mean that it exists, other than as a concept or idea.
Once again, your problem distinguishing the subjective from the objective rears its ugly head.
iceaura is right on the subject of the thread. The thread title is a lie you told at the start. It was exposed early on, and yet you persist.
All that needs to be said about the ostensible topic of the thread has already been said. Mostly, it's the side-tracks and extraneous topics you've brought in that we're discussing now. Not that you're doing much discussing. Mostly it's petulant stonewalling from you at the moment.
I understand what's going on, Jan. It's hard when the ground you always thought was solid starts to shift underneath you. I've been where you are, and I sympathise with your plight and understand why you're so defensive.
You keep asserting that other people have knowledge. First, it was knowledge of God; now it's knowledge of evidence for God. You do this in spite of explicit denials from the people who you claim have this knowledge. Moreover, you refuse to present any of the supposed evidence you say everybody knows about.
You can't just spin the wheels making silly claims, Jan. At some point, the rubber has to meet the road.
Your words are belied by your actions.
I'm glad you find atheist psychology interesting. Eventually, you'll most likely work out why atheist psychology is like that.
That's not how it works, Jan, and by now you know it very well. Your ignorant act isn't fooling anybody.
I believe that unicorns probably don't exist. But I'm quite open to somebody showing me evidence to the contrary. If you were to claim that unicorns exist, it would certainly not be nonsensical for me to ask that you produce appropriate evidence - perhaps some photographs, an x-ray or two, video footage, or (simplest, maybe) the animal itself - for examination. Even circumstantial evidence might be sufficient, depending on what it consisted of.
It is no different for God.
How does anybody know this? How do you know, Jan?
So far, your only answer is "It's natural to know.
I don't think it's natural to "just know" stuff like that. Also, there is abundant evidence right here in front of you that, even if such a thing is possible, many people here explicitly refute the assertion that they "just know" that your God exists. They tell you, but you continue to believe what you want to believe, even in the face of direct contradiction of your assertions.
Your position is absurd, Jan. Can't you see that?
I understand that you really want it to be true that all human beings literally have innate God-given knowledge. But is there any objective evidence that such knowledge exists or is even possible?
It is a cop out on your part to keep slapping the "denier" label on reasonable people. Objectively, there is nothing to deny.
Look, it's simple. You claim that humans all have innate knowledge of God and, moreover, that God actually exists. You need to provide reasons why anybody should accept your claims. In particular, you'll need to come up with a rational explanation for why literally hundreds of millions of people claim that they do not have the knowledge you claim they have. You'll have to try harder than "They are all deep in denial."
If you now consider yourself an expert on "atheist psychology", then please explain to all of us why hundreds of millions of atheists are in denial of their innate knowledge? What's in it for them, psychologically? What's their motivation or psychological drive in denying the magnificent Creator of the Universe? If this knowledge truly is innate, all these people are telling themselves lies. Why would they engage in something so self-destructive? (Or doesn't it matter?) Are they (we) all mentally ill? Is it an ego trip we're on to try to feel more important than God?
Tell us your insights on the psychology of atheists, Jan. Maybe you can cure us.
I understand your frustration.
Although I dont know you it saddens me to see you as a victim of superstition and it does frustrate me that I am powerless to help you.
Just as you feel you have the answers so do I.
My answer is to throw off the unsupported superstition that comes to us from the bronze age, and while I absolutely respect folk from that era, I am confident many of my ancestors were these people but recognise the reality that they knew so little and their efforts to make sense of things had no help from science or even observation over time nor did they have the benefit of recording observations in writting relying upon the telling and retelling of what they believed was accumulated knowledge...such methods of managing knowledge lends itself to corruption.
They could not explain things so invented reason for the workings of nature and events they could not explain.
Add to this the fact that they though someone with a mental problem was inspired by God it is easy to dismiss their stories and beliefs as a realistic account of reality...and today we can explain that thunder is not an angry god but the result of lightening...we even know where the Sun goes at night.
We know the world is a sphere...etc etc etc... (I like many etcs cause it has folk nit picking just like starting a sentence with and or saying got☺)
Moreover we can trace the development of religion from Sun worship to a personification attempt and relating astrology to evidence of the gods.
You do know that the resurection parrallels the behaviour of the Sun as it "dies" at the end of winter "for three days" before it is reborn and starts it new life rising after the third day.
It is more than coincidence that JC was dead for three days...why not a week or a month...it was three days to parrallel the Sun...the first god of agriculture.
Many cultures had this story, over ten that we know of, ...the twelve followers of JC...the Sun moves thru 12 constellations. ..oh I could go on and on and it is an interesting subject but all of it tells us that to rely upon the misinterpretations of folk from the past leaves one believing the same superstitious stuff they did.
I love my father but realise I know more than him just as he knew more than his father...so I go back to my great great etc etc etc etc grandfather sitting with his goats around the campfire wondering where the Sun went and upon hearing the thunder wondering why god is angry with him and selecting a goat to offer to make god happy again and I just wish I could tell him what we now know...I am trying to have you realise what we now know but I feel you would be happier sitting at the camp fire with my great great etc etc etc grand father picking which goat to offer.
We are better..we know where the Sun goes at night. ..we know christianity was an attempt to personify...Once the Sun was god ..interesting how so many references to JC is the "son" it was actually a reference to the "Sun"...
I simply submit you are following superstition.
You say you are on a spiritual journey...what does that mean really...it should mean you are seeking truth...I have given you truth here today...truth that you can expand upon ... seeking truth is wonderful and i encourage you to do so but please realise truth wont be found in stories from the past unless you step back and see our religions come from Sun worship...which was dictated by humans turning to agriculture...go back to Hunter gathers and guess what...they had animal gods...think about it.
There was even a happier time when it was the woman who was worshipped because back then they at least had the humility to realise creation came from the woman not a god they had yet to invent.
We now, as modern humans, still need to know how it all came about but the only answer is we dont know...we can know why earlier humans invented Sun gods and animal gods and fit it into our history but we need not make their mistake of inventing an answer that produces a made up God...we now have to realise that even though we now know so much we still know nothing about creation or if there was a point of creation...we must accept such rather than make up stuff...making up stuff is a lie and you cant move past that.
The irony is theists see closure with the invention of a God...God explains everything...but they are happy to stop at God...if you want to know stuff would you not ask ...where did God come from...so God is no answer.
And why do we need creation...does it not make more sense to propose a universe that has always been here...sure a human mind cant imagine such but that is no more difficult to invent than a god..much better really.
Accepting truth will be difficult for you as it will mean you will be rejected by family and friends and that is hard to do.. I bet over thete you may even lose yoir job....the Atheist Experience recognise the problem and offer help...and I expect in your situation that I imagine throwing off superstition would not be easy...but do you live a lie or become a modern human.
Its up to you.
Sleep on it and the answer will come.
And be kind to all creatures ...see if you can lower yourself from the position of its all for me and extend compassion to some small creature...that really will help.
All the best Jan I hope you can rescue yourself and manage that period where all your friends and family will reject you...which in itself tells you what a crock it all is.
Best wishes sleep tight.
I am sorry Jan I seem to have lost a couple of pages which is a shame..I am doing all I can to help you reach two hundred pages.☺
It is indeed a great thread Jan I am sorry I dont have much time to put together the pages I lost which is a pity.
I look forward to reading your replies to James and myself.
I'd like to present a mirror-image of Jan's main arguments in this thread, such as they are. So, let me channel my inner Jan...
"We all know that God doesn't exist. Knowledge of God's non-existence is natural to human beings. Human beings throughout the ages have known that God doesn't exist, even though they have often gone along with the religious trappings of God belief for social and cultural reasons, out of fear of persecution, or for other reasons that we needn't examine here.
Theists (like Jan) all share the knowledge that God does not exist. How could they not, since the knowledge is innate? But theists are all in denial. A lot of them are aware that God doesn't exist, but they perform the outward motions of God belief for various reasons. A lot of others are so deep in denial that they strongly assert that God exists, even in spite of their own innate knowledge.
This denial of the non-existence of God has become so pervasive in human societies that, in fact, the majority now assert that some form of deity exists.
Scientists have shown that humans might actually have a natural propensity to deny the non-existence of God. If this is so, then it might account for a large proportion of the theistic denial that we commonly see.
However, when all is said and done, no argument needs to be made that God doesn't exist. This is something we all know. It is obvious and natural, and don't believe anybody who tells you otherwise - remember they are in denial.
If a theist tells you that God Is, just remember - they are a theist, so they would say that. Remember that this is a person whose psychology has been screwed up. They are denying the obvious, often even to themselves. There's no reasoning with such people, so don't bother trying. Some time in their lives they all made a choice to deny what they know to be true. In the end, they will either come back to the Truth or not. In the meantime, their psychology is an interesting study, but don't bother trying to engage these people in a rational discussion.
Sometimes you will meet people who have "got religion" recently. Those people will tell you that they used to be atheists. Bear in mind that they were never really atheists. Secretly, they were in denial the whole time they claimed to be atheists. It's complicated. They always knew God doesn't exist - everybody does, after all. But even when they professed non-belief, they were secretly in denial about the Truth, hoping and believing in the darkness of their souls (sic) that there was a God after all. The only change from then to where they are now is that they have made a choice to make their real beliefs known, rather than suppressing them as they did before.
The important point to remember is that there are no real theists. Everybody knows that God really doesn't exist. It's natural. Scientists have discovered that real theists might not actually exist, and that's not a joke."
The point, of course, is to demonstrate the contentless nature of this kind of "argument".
Not your contributions.
You have been posting dishonestly and in bad faith, beginning with the OP falsehood. The bulk of your posting here is personal attack, insult, etc. None of your posting is good faith argument or discussion.
The question is why overt Abrahamic theists post like that on science forums. It's an interesting question, because so many do - one can recognize a common style, even.
There should be a double like button☺
They get sick of the utter crap on their religious forums and presumably find pleasure in crab walking however the positive is we get to observe the behaviour of this near extinct species first hand.
We should nevertheless make them welcome and hope that while here they may become less frightened by science ...
I believe we can save Jan it will be a slow process but surely he must respond in time.
He must have learnt from my simple example that taking something out of context and presenting it to support his world view is dishonest and I expect upon this realisation he will plead guilty and ask to be forgiven.
Not to do so will not see him well placed if there is indeed a judgement day.
And as I have said we could thank Jan for showing us how theists conduct themselves and for being smart enough to cause a response..I mean I am no bright spark but Jan is the first theist that I feel inclinded to argue with...his trickyness is a challenging aspect whereas say someone like Ken Ham you would just walk away...
Hope you are well I always enjoy your posts.
They are hardly an extinct species. There are plenty to be found.
Mostly I find that biblical literalists, evolution deniers and the like are not so much afraid of science as ignorant of it. It doesn't help that there are a lot of people who know better but who are quite willing to exploit that ignorance to gain followers for their own brand of religion.
As things stand, he is stuck in a rut. As far as I can tell, he has actually given up on trying to argue his side. Mostly we just get mantras from him these days.
Mind you, his own brand of theism is difficult to sell, reliant as it is on direct personal revelation from the god. There's nothing Jan can point to that's concrete evidence for his God. He actually goes to some lengths to avoid talking about evidence - most likely because he knows it is a battle he can't win. It's a lot easier for him to just claim special knowledge from God and be done with it. That leaves him to snipe at atheists and recite his mantras. Minimal actual thought about the views of his opponents is required with that mindset.
It is quite eye-opening. Not to concede any ground at all, no matter how often the weaknesses of your argument are exposed, takes quite some determination and a rather single-minded focus on the core beliefs, no doubt. Best not to even consider any ideas that might call the core beliefs into question.
Sure at the moment but their hold is less than it was and it will become less as the net helps educate the masses.
They are on the way out ... selection of the fittest will occur either that or JC will come back and fry them all.
Yes but a continual drip will errode a mountain...I am that drip☺
Jan is coming around if not I will go over everything for him I dont care how many times I need to..I may need to make longer posts but I will do that for Jan☺ ... in fact I will make provision in my will to have a ghost writter post each day ... they can say what they want so long as they work in "superstition from the bronze age when folk did not know where the Sun went at night"...it will sink in sooner or later....and "its all made up".
Jan can be saved.
Jan wants to be saved.
Jan will be saved.
My only fear is he will be like a reformed smoker...he will be on everyones case to go atheist...you wait and see☺
I find it understandable.
He will have 20 years maybe 40 years of repetition of his manta so it is burnt well into his thinking but truth is a most powerful tool...few can resist it ...even in an effort to reject it he must embrace it..to deny it he will recite it and in so doing a little bit will take hold and grow...it will grow in his sleep...that is key.
We dream to organise our thought and he will dream and subconsciously he will select and keep what is truth...he cant resist the truth. ...
Soon he will realise what I have put in there and he will avoid sleep to deny his mind taking in a little truth here and there...sleep deprevatuon will take over and he will collapse unable to resist the process that can not be stopped.
He will awake refreshed indeed reborn.
Just as he knows the mind will surrender to the notion of a God he also knows that it seeks truth...you cant stop it...and so its only a matter of time that Jan will be saved.
Except, of course, stuff like the OP of this 100 page thread.
His posting seems to me unconcerned with "battles" in the sense of argument or discussion.
I'm not really that interested in trying to "convert" Jan - or anybody else, for that matter. I don't believe that atheism is something you should be pushed into. For some people, I imagine it's kind of like having the rug pulled out from under them, violently.
Jan tells us he is studying the psychology of atheists. From my side, I find Jan's own psychology moderately interesting. I know quite a few theists who are very able at defending their beliefs. They don't come across as having the need to pretend to know stuff that nobody knows. In that sense, they are more reasonable than Jan. As far as proof of God goes, they understand and concede the limits of that in a way that, apparently, Jan cannot.
He is concerned to avoid overt battles over the substance of his beliefs. His posting, lately, seems more like evangelism to publicise his own beliefs, without offering any real argument. His repeated telling people what they know and think always brings a bit of smile to my face. If I were to say I liked apples, he'd tell me that really I don't at all, but I'm just in denial, and that I've been in denial so long that I've come in some sense to believe my own bullshit about the apples. Because, after all, Jan knows us all better than we know ourselves. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
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Please tell me he's not using that horse-crap to justify him being a troll, and a dishonest poster? Even if he was genuinely studying it, and doing so by kicking those hornets nest to see the reaction, it's clear that he's only ever been interested in those reactions that support the strawman atheist caricature that he's already built.
He is no more studying anything on this site than goldfish study those that feed them. Only the goldfish have more consistent arguments and longer memories.
Each to their own, I guess.
The reasonable ones are those you can actually have a meaningful discussion with. The reasonable ones are those not looking to score points every time. The reasonable ones are those who actually listen to what the other says rather than insisting they conform to the strawman they would prefer to argue against.
Clickbait to increase traffic.
I've moved past that to finding if utterly disrespectful.
Trolls do what trolls do.
Push back on my part☺
Jan sneaks in a little preaching in on me which I take as sincere on his part but I cant resist playing the same game back...its a game isnt it?
I dont really expect Jan to change his position or his ways....I do feel guilty that I have let truth loose in his head....but he has demonstrated he can resist the truth in the past.
I doubt if he enjoys the freedom we have here and frankly I think if over there I would not declare to be atheist...you only have to watch the atheist experience utube show to realise so many folk can not handle atheists over there.. a generalisation but ....
I just like to chat and play with Jan .... but there is little point in taking anything seriously particulary religion.
If folk find him annoying they dont have to read his posts....
And he is entiled to free speech even if a little tricky.
Hopefully these long threads help with site traffic which helps keep the place running and so a few of us can hang out.
Anyways Jan will have his hands full when he reads our posts...He will be swamped with mine and give a dismissive reply which is good as I wont have time after tomorrow and will be disappearing back into the woodwork.
I also do enjoy your posts James ...always well thought out and interesting. Thanks.
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