Scientists discover that atheists might not exist, and that’s not a joke

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Jan Ardena, Apr 8, 2018.

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  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Your attempts to account for it here have been entirely composed of falsehoods, misrepresentations of other people's research and posting, bad faith in argument.

    Entirely.

    If theism is simply natural, why are we subjected to that kind of posting from theists in science forums?
     
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  3. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    Such as?

    Be my guest.

    I guess it depends who you're talking with.

    No need to get angry Alex.

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    Thanks Alex.
    Hope you're not too unhinged.

    Jan.
     
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  5. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    What falsehoods?

    What theists post have no bearing on the naturalness of theism.
    Why would you think it does?

    Jan.
     
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  7. Michael 345 Bali in Nov closer Valued Senior Member

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    Trouble with Trolls as demonstrated by this thread is their insatiable appetite.

    The insatiable appetite comes because of their ability to vomit up recent intake

    Why do they have recent intakes? Troll feeders have a inexhaustible supply of replies

    Troll feeders, step away from the keyboard

    Let the Troll die of natural causes

    Starvation of replies

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  8. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Moth see light. Moth head to light.

    But when you're right you're right.

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  9. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    You better believe it☺.

    There is no need to let him annoy you but if he does avoid his threads or put him on ignore.

    I enjoy playing games with Jan and I dont see the harm really.

    If I stop feeding him as you suggest I lose a little bit of daily enjoyment that frankly I look forward to.

    Sure I have various things to do but you would be surprised how playing here provides a time passing opportunity between important things.

    Like waiting for hours of captures to complete...you need to keep an eye on things. ..or when stacking and processing images you cant get interested in a TV show for example cause of checking stuff...so I pop in here just with my phone whilst the computer grinds away processing my latest data.. .like now.

    And there are times when I am suffering pain and the banter here takes my mind away from it.

    Its religion so I dont take it seriously and enjoy having a dig or two.

    Alex
     
  10. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Rather than get sidetracked lets us focus upon the proposition you suggest exists by your approach in the op.

    Firstly it is clear that atheists do exist.

    At least two..Matt and me.

    And there are many others.

    I do understand that if one believes in God it must be difficult to comprehend that there are folk who simply do not believe a God exists and so you think they do believe really but at best reject God.

    I heard a atheist say recently he found he could not stop his fear of going to hell..so he could fit your idea of an atheist...but then there is me...I really do not believe and think its all made up and not afraid to say so... I dont fear a myth.

    For me it is all lies.

    Religion and God I consider to be superstition.

    Certainly humans want answers and for many years answers came via their invented Gods their laws came from invented Gods.

    So humans have had superstition providing answers and structure.

    It is no surprise to find superstition is still reached for such that it could seem that superstition is somewhat natural and built in...I have read studies about why people are religious I must read more.

    Perhaps you could reflect upon your approach here such to look at what actions of yours may reasonably upset folk.

    Could you have been just a little too provocative?

    We could reasonably discuss why folk turn to religion in an objective manner.

    As you say you are a theists umoung a mob of atheists but rather than destroying their respect for you ..perhaps if you were direct with your answers and less confrontational a pleasant discussion could follow.

    And there may be times where you will have to turn the other cheek ...
    Folk should be able to respect an honest attempt to explain yourself but you really can not expect to claim God exists with no evidence or at least an honest attempt to explain why you believe what ever you believe...

    It depends on your mission ... if it is to generate site traffic confrontation is the way to go.

    When I asked for evidence you basically said go fish..I can understand why you could do that..but failure to offer evidence leaves you open to criticism. ..and sure I probably would throw it in your face but then you can say that you offerred your best.

    I dont know what more to say other than the thread may fail unless you can turn things around.

    Anyways I wanted to say so much more but my stack is near finished so I really must go and save the result before the lappy crashes...which it will do if I dont save it when it is complete...
    Alex
     
  11. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    4,888
    Yazata: "The word 'God' appears in each of the sentences. Why do you think that's important and what conclusions do you think that people should draw from it?"

    Jan: That theism is natural

    So how does the word 'God' appearing in your three sentences support the conclusion that "theism is natural"?

    (Which I don't necessarily disagree with, btw, provided that we don't interpret 'natural' to mean 'innate'. Learning things is natural for beings like us, but that doesn't mean that we are born knowing everything.)

    My argument here is more that logically speaking, your argument isn't any good.

    Jan: Theism does not make any claim

    If theism lacks any content, then how can theism be meaningful or important?

    Jan: The only claim on the table is an atheists one.

    Only if we accept that theism is meaningless and lacks any content. If theists do that they will have dodged most of the need to defend their own position, but in so doing, they will have essentially surrendered to the atheists. Theism will have been left meaningless, empty and unimportant, with nothing of its own.

    If there's nothing to be said about theism, then how does it differ from atheism and why bother with "scriptures"?

    Jan: The article is correct, as long as it is understood that the author does not mean atheists physical form is not in question. Which shouldn't be too difficult.

    Your assertion that the article is correct is a claim, is it not? But you just said up above: "Theism does not make any claim".

    The article is foolish, written by somebody who appears to be a philosophical illiterate. Humans may indeed have a tendency towards 'metaphysical' thinking, but that certainly can't be equated with theistic belief. Even atheists typically think in terms of substance and properties, of wholes and parts, of possibility and necessity, in terms of physical causation, they embrace mathematics and logic and believe that these things have deep associations with how reality is. That's all metaphysics (science is built atop it) but none of it has anything directly to do with theism.

    Jan:The biblical verse, The fool has said in his heart, there is no God, is not an insult, but a description of a person who simply chooses to not believe.

    Another claim.

    Jan: That God just Is, regardless of belief...

    Well sure. If Paris is the capital of France, then it's the capital of France. That's going to be true regardless of whether I believe that the capital of France is Paris or Madrid. If God exists, then God exists. His existence has nothing to do with what I believe or don't believe. The goal in this case is for me to adopt beliefs that best correspond to reality.

    But you're still playing games, aren't you? You say "God just Is" and elsewhere you insist that you aren't talking about God's existence.

    So what does "God just Is" mean to you?

    That the word 'God' exists? That the idea of 'God' exists? That belief that 'God just Is' plays an important role in your (and many people's) psychology? If that's the direction that we are going to go, then 'God just Is' would be entirely dependent on human belief. We would be God's creators, not the other way around. And that's precisely what the atheists say, isn't it?

    I'm not aware that any theists would want to say that God is created by and dependent on humanity. That's the whole point of putting creation stories at the beginning of "scriptures". The writers were trying to lay out what they thought God's relationship is to everything else.

    Yazata: People can disagree about 'invisible pink unicorns' or about 'celestial teapots', and both sides would be using the same linguistic expressions, but that wouldn't tell us anything about the existence of invisible unicorns or celestial teapots.

    Jan: If God was purely about "existence" you or these other atheists wouldn't need to be talking about God.

    How many science /philosophy sites do you see with a Unicorn forum, or thread dedicated to the existence of unicorns.

    Me? I'm prepared to go out on a limb and say none.

    .
    Of course. That's the whole point!

    I'm addressing the form of your hugely cryptic 'common denominator' argument.

    My point is that the form of your argument can be reduced to variables. Then those variables can be given different interpretations. We can replace 'God' with 'invisible pink unicorn' or 'celestial teapot'. The fact that 'pink unicorn' would then appear in all three sentences (and would thus be your 'common denominator') doesn't justify our drawing any conclusions about the reality of pink unicorns, or belief in pink unicorns, or that 'Pink Unicorns just Are!'
     
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  12. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    Of course professed atheists exist. That was never the issue.

    It's not hard to understand professed atheist exist. What makes you think that?

    Good made up reason to be atheist.

    The door swings both ways.

    We could do, but it would be off topic.

    Where have I claimed God exists in this thread?

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    This thread isn't about evidence of God, or who was there at creation.

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    The thread has been very successful.
    The article article hits the nail on the head.
    Remember?
    The actual point of the thread.
    That's what I'm concerned with.

    Look how you're in a tizz, trying to change the subject matter. That's partly where the real revelation lies.

    So thanks for your contribution.

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    I may do a JamesR, and do a sumarisation, to what has been an eye opener.

    Jan.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Not pointless at all. You just didn't understand it.

    That's true of a lot of your comments here - you don't understand the discussion, so you try to mock and belittle instead. And you are probably unaware of how foolish that makes you look.
     
  14. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Then the Easter Bunny and Santa are just as natural - again, by your own logic. And anyone who denies their existence is unnatural. Indeed, by your argument, those people don't exist.

    A good summary of your "logic."
    You are the one getting angry and defensive because your dogma is being questioned.
     
  15. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    ///
    That means nothing.

    <>
     
  16. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    It doesn't necessarily support it, nor does it have to.
    Atheists have to invent reasons to maintain their position. Outside of that God Is. Theists do not have to invent reasons to believe in God. Plus there are studies to show this.

    Do we require logic to know that food is essential to our well being? Rhetorical question.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "If theism lacks any content", but meaning and importance are not necessary. If we search out meaning and importance, it doesn't supercede theism.

    Who cares. It is what it is?
    Lots of kids hate water, they could care less about its importance.

    Why do theists need to defend their position?

    Makes no difference to the reality of theism, and atheism. If the whole world professed atheism, God would still be the common denominator.

    Theism - belief in God
    Atheism - doesn't believe in God
    Common denominator - God.

    Some people have something to say about theism, some don't. It changes nothing.
    Of course, as an atheist, what one says, or asserts about theism is important, because atheism is all about assertion.


    It's not a claim about theism. But even if it was. So what? Some people make claims about water, albeit totally unnecessary.

    Why can't it?

    People drink beer, shakes, orange juice, tea, coffee, and other stuff. But it would be foolish to say none of those have anything directly to do with water.

    A proven claim, if this thread is anything to go by.

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    ...
     
  17. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    ...

    Is, Rhodesia currently exists, true?

    If you set a criteria by which you will accept that God exists, how does that correspond to reality.?

    Especially when there are people who naturally believe in God.

    Some people regard existence, in the way that that they perceive themselves, motor bikes exist. God doesn't exist like that. So I use God Is, to avoid confusion and sticking points (atheists love sticking points

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    )

    If everything was destroyed, God would still Be. It is a description of God's nature.

    You are a professed atheist. How is any commentary you make about God, or theism, not directed by that?
    That being said, what is what you say, worth?

    See above.

    Are you kidding me? It is incredibly simple. Personally I think that's it's charm. Not sure whether I would call it an argument, as both premises, and the conclusion is true. Unless it isn't.

    It may be valid, but it wouldn't be true.
    That's why I don't regard mine as an argument. It is true.

    Jan.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  18. Michael 345 Bali in Nov closer Valued Senior Member

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    Has been on Iggy for months

    This can only be speculation but feeding Trolls instead of letting them die enables them go hone their Troll idiocy which unfortunately may infect others

    Therein lies perceived harm

    Let it go

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  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    That worked as an excuse for laziness until they elected Trump.

    They are fed by bots. They will not die.
     
  20. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I believe your speculation is reasonable.

    You would think something could get through but clearly it can not.

    Their brains are often drowned by the brain washing.

    I think it is a sort of mental illness and I recall reading research suggesting something along those lines.

    Clearly the ability to weigh evidence is no longer available to them.

    They see no difficulty in placing faith in a book that is made up, is rather immoral,vague and contradictory.

    They generally are liars and the more proof of God movies I watch the more apparent that has become and the real tell tale of their mental condition is they dont appear to realise that they are lieing ...but I suppose that is consistent with their overall delusion.

    They really believe they have an answer for everything but ignore the ones that demonstrate the inconsistency of scriptures...like why are you not out there killing workers on the day of rest or why can your made up God make rules about not eating shellfish but could not take a decent position on slavery.

    How they wiggle and refuse to accept that the bible promotes slavery and their responses to those questions are hillarious yet they still hold up their compilation of fairey tales from the bronze age as a guide to life.

    That is clearly delusional.

    You know yourself if you found just one mistake in a real book its credibility is trashed and you simply replace it with a book from a more informed author.

    That approach is reasonable but to hold on to and accept a book riddled with mistakes from the bronze age would tend to confirm delusion.

    I have been thinking of starting a thread for the purpose of listing the made up aspect of the bible and the calls to immoral behaviour and all the flaws that really should have it banned as a terrorist hand book.

    But those who know what I know already know and the believers still wont be cured.

    It is both funny and sad to see otherwise intelligent folk mentally handicapped and so damaged.

    The fear of a nonexistent hell kills their ability to accept that they have been conned.

    What about having a Sun worship festival twice a year at the appropriate dates☺ with bible bonfires to help get the message out there.

    So when the TV reporter interviews the mc or any attendees he they can say we are burning bibles because it promotes slavery and directs folk to kill their lawn mowing neighbours and forbids eating shellfish.. that could change so much.

    You know I cant find anything in the bible telling believers to kill child molesting priests but I can find direction for parents to have their unruly child killed.

    And yet folk still regard it as "the good book"... such folk are clearly idiots.

    As to folk like Jan I do think they should be exposed and although you wont change their mental state, that is for a health professional, I do think engaging them exposes their beliefs as superstitious and they themselves demonstrate the overall inconsistency of the nonsense they present and their dishonesty.

    I must go as I have things to do ... life is short and certainly is not a dress rehersal.
    Have a great day and dont beat your slaves such that they die within days of the beating.
    Alex
     
  21. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I encourage you to do so Jan that is really a great idea.

    I for one would love to see your points consolidated and presented in a consistent manner.

    Such an approach would hopefully clear up any misunderstanding which may have crept in over the ninty or so pages of this thread.
    Alex
     
  22. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    4,907
    I have learnt a great deal in the short time I have been on this site and can truely say I have found the answers.
    Honestly I am starting to wonder if God hasnt sent me to save the world and drawing up the next covenant with man (thats why I was guided to law..it is so obvious) ...what if that is real or just a delussion...mmm I could ring free board and a nice room in a safe place with that gig.
    But I suppose you could make a living running such a scam.
    But you know as bad as it is religion works so good for good people who are good but want authority to be good.

    Thats a concession.

    Just in...new arrangement for slaves they get food money but have to find their own accomodation pay for their education and health care and no more slave beating as it reduces productivity.
    But folk sort through and find whatever it is they need...its a bit like finding a new diet I guess.
    Its a funny world with all the religiius conflict but its some degree of control over the population ..is that what needs to be done..its all too much..I am going into space now and place it all in perspective...but its so cold.
    Another 30 minutes before my object is up..and can I find it...
    Alex
     
  23. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    Well, you haven't brought things Dow to violence in a short while. So one can only hope.

    Narcissism will do that to you.
    You've got to fight it man.

    Bye Alex.

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    Jan.
     
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