Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by heavyarms, Mar 8, 2008.
So do you favor a lynch mob mentality against anyone who can be labeled as a sex offender?
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did i say that?
No, i favor a strong stance for the protection of children but i dont belive in lynching ANYONE (actually i dont belive in capital punishment at all)
Well, to cap off the evening:
The perception that all sexual touching is always harmful to children was brought to me by sources that are not credible and are violent.
Suicides and psychological damage associated with sex seem to me to happen to people in any age bracket.
The reaction of adults to the finding that a child has had sex can be and often is damaging.
I am going to consider myself done with this topic for quite some time. I have other things to do with my life.
what sources would you like?
I was giving a personal opinion not a scientific one, if you want a scientific source i could probably find one with the coralation between sex with minors and mental illness. Hell all i would have to do is find ANY study on multiple personality disorder because this ONLY occurs as a defence mechisium to protect against sexual abuse of a child
Having attended law school, and having prosecuted individuals who believe a child 'wanted' to have sex with them because that child smiled at them or wore something 'sexy', all I have been able to pick up from your posts is a lot of inflammatory statements and then constant backpedaling. Are some individuals wrongly accused? Yes. Do some people demonise sex to the extent where their children grow up thinking it is something dirty? Yes. Does that mean that when a child is molested or raped that parents should simply not react or attempt to not demonise the act committed against that child? No.
What you fail to understand is that parents who have discovered their child has been molested or raped are terrified of the kind of damage it will do to their child's psyche. The damage to how that child perceives sex is part of it. Parents do not demonise "sex". They demonise the act of having sex with a child because of the fact that children are severely damaged by it. It would seem you are unable to distinguish between the two. Parents demonise the damage done to their child, not "sex" in general.
You have failed to recognise that a sexual predator can and will make the child believe they actually want to have sex. Does not mean the child is capable of understanding what it is being told it should want... "if you loved me, you'd let me put it in there".. Children are pliable and are easily led. That is part of the damage done to a child. Children trust easily and when the predator leads the child to believe that sex is a means to demonstrate love, their ability to trust is shattered.
My friend was but 3 years of age when her abuse started. It ended when she was 12 and had run away from home, only to be picked up by the police as she hid in bushland and then sent to live with her father. One of the greatest issues she faced in attempting to come to terms with what happened to her is the very fact that her stepfather led her to believe she wanted it. She used to comment that as a 5 year old, she would happily do what he asked, because he had led her to believe that it was the only way for her to show him that she loved him. He bribed her with gifts. Sexual predators are called predators for a reason. They prey on their victims and confuse them. She was never in any position to consent. Even when she thought she wanted to give her father oral sex, she was simply too young to understand what was happening to her. She hated doing it, but she wanted to do it because he had convinced her it was a way for her to show how much she loved him.
And enjoyed them? What the hell is wrong with you?
You are attributing adult thought processes and understanding to children. Even if a child is 13 and has breasts, and wants to have sex because she thinks it is 'cool' or because she thinks 'everyone else is doing it so why not', is simply not old enough to understand what she may be consenting to. That is why a 30 year old man having sex with a 13 year old girl is illegal. She may enjoy it. But it does not mean she is mentally capable of being able to understand.
No one is saying a child who has been sexually abused should be treated as though they were somehow evil because they have been tainted by having sex. On the contrary. The child is the victim and the crime committed against it is the sexual acts by the pedophile. That is why parents of sexually abused children often have their child undergo therapy, to ensure that their child's brain does not associate 'sex' with 'abuse' in the proper context. You need to learn to distinguish between the two. Parents are not angry that their child had sex. Parents are angry because some pervert defiled their child and warped their child's beliefs of what love and sex actually are.
Err..no its because its harmful,pshycologicaly damaging and the offender is not right in the head, most re-offend and some move on to worse thing's
That's down to a poor justice system nothing to do with demonizing sexuality.
there is also just as many that do not get convicted who have commited the crime.
If you were gangraped i'm sure your tune would change quicker than a commercials. Forced violation/penetration for the sexual gratification of someone who is not socialy adjusted enough to no right from wrong or has not enough discipline.
You are speaking again from the molester's viewpoint, and who (as give me some facts for once with proof instead of the dodgy going's on in your head)
treats a child victim making them feel as though they are tainted by something hellish...?
ANY SEXUAL ADVANCES made on a 5yr old are for the adults pleasure only with no thoght for the 5 yr old who has no comprehension of sex or the stress/hassle in dealing with relationships
How can you not believe in the age of consent...yet....find sex with under age people disgusting your a hypocrite who only believes in the freedom of the offender's rights with the victim nothing more than a throw away towel, pat him on the head give him a lolly don't mention it again and it will go away......you ethic's behind your opinion has no constant and seems to me (i'm not accusing you) the rantings of someone who has been on the recieving end of this type of justice or believes that children are adults playthings
Why don't you enlighten us...............if you can
But all the other experts are wrong to you.....so give us some links to these experts...........
Does this mean if you feel like having sex/touching sexualy with a minor you will..............tell me, give me links to these sources...I would be interested......
I'm not too fond of the US and it's policies,so by using your logic I should be able to kill as I feel fit, as in my mind I would be doing the world a favour and anybody who says Iam wrong are part of the problem....see thats your logic applied to soething else the trouble is, I am wiser than that I can logicaly look at all the implications, action and cause and know that it would be wrong so I wouldn't do it.... you say because you are told it is wrong we should do it to find out.......you are a GOOFBALL
More than anything, the responses that I have received indicate a lack of competence, and a lack of desire for competence in the matter of child sexual abuse. I suspect that all three of the major respondents have no clue how to prevent child sexual abuse in any way more advanced than chest-beating, willful ignorance, and a crime and punishment model that is worse than useless. Some of the means that I suspect that the respondents will use might actually constitute child sexual abuse.
I don't have time and I am not paid enough to spend another several hours even starting to try to correct misconceptions, prejudices, or mob mentality. It's up to those of you who are responsible adults to actually use the grey matter between your ears and for God's sake do some research besides that which is filtered by the Family Research Council and John Walsh. The science of sexology that had its heyday in the sixties has been erased by thinly disguised religious garbage from the Judeo-Christian faction.
Welcome to the 13th century again. Have fun.
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That's your problem.
Other forms of abuse cause suicides, homicides, drug addictions, psychological problems, and so on, and a lot of people who hate pedophiles actually show contempt for people who were abused when it was not sexual. It's not the abuse, it's the sex that gets so many people's hormones going. I hope it never happens, but the same rationale for using such destructive force against sex offenders applies to child abusers who might be seen as applying the ruler too much. People would see that if it were actually the damage caused to the child that were the concern. But they aren't "supposed to" so they look for other outlets for their aggression.
I think it is the desire to have a population of humans that it is considered OK to abuse. Massive amounts of child abuse disappear from human perception when it is clouded by the sex issues. I'm never going to buy the idea that sexual abuse is so much worse. My butt has been hurt very badly, for a long time, and continuously, in such a way that it's hard to see how being buttfucked for two minutes could be worse, especially if the sick SOB who attempted the buttfucking actually tried to prevent injury and pain. It's pretty much the same thing. From where I sit it's the people who have always deliberately inflicted pain and injury who are telling me who should be hurt. They had the same kind of twists in their alleged minds.
Children and pedophiles actually wind up in the same boat, both helpless to protect themselves from being abused by so-called adults who need their violence fix.
What's the matter Bells afraid of being penatrated?........... Nah! I'm just kidding I agree completely with ya! Just to let you know. I'll tell you personally that we need to know if there is something going on in a childs live. If there is sexual abuse, if they'er being beaten or not getting enough attention becuase things like this will greatly lead our childen to grow up and be all fubar. And I know your from europe pinocchio and I'm not sure if they have that saying there but...... F**ked Up Beyond All Recognition. I'm trying to play nice! But in that sence metakron I think you need to find a job of maybe a conspiricy therist or maybe a court jester! But anything that keeps you from ever running for lets say president and keeps you the hell away from me is good! But the fact is we need to know what to expect from a pedophile so that things like this discussion will never happen. I think even you metakran can agree with that! Bells, pinocchio, 15ofthe19 and asguard? You too? Or is this just an easy way to get your anger out on a daily bases...................................... Becuase I also like to make fun of metakran on this thread! And make a valid point!
I disagree. I think most people feel sickened at the thought of any child being harmed, be it sexually or through physical abuse (hitting), as well as psychological abuse, which sometimes goes hand in hand with both sexual and physical abuse. I seriously doubt any sane individual would feel "contempt" for a child who was physically abused.
You are basically saying that people hate pedophilia because of the "sex". It is not the sexual act itself that angers people. It is the fact that an adult saw fit to seek their own sexual gratification with a child.
Do you mean the 'mob mentality' that is often reported in the media against pedophiles? It can and does happen. There have been many incidents where a mob had formed who wanted to rip the skin off a person who physically harmed a child or killed them. There was a case, not long ago in Australia, where a toddler's body was found in a suitcase, dumped in a lake in a popular park in a residential area. When it was discovered the child had been the victim of constant physical abuse and that it was the mother who had committed the abuse, people bayed for her blood. When she was made to retrace her steps to where the child had been dumped, crowds gathered on the other side of the lake, angry at how any individual could do that to a child, let alone her own son. Candlelight vigils were held at the lake and memorials were made to mark the poor child's anguish.
There have been other instances where child abusers (not sexual) have had to be placed in protective custody because the general population in the prison would have killed them for their acts.
People hate people who harm children, be it sexual harm or not.
I disagree. Both forms of harm are equally disgusting. It is never "ok" to abuse a child. That is why there are a plethora of laws to ensure people who do abuse children go to jail.
It can be and it can not be. It depends on each case and each individual child. I would say both are equally vile.
You would attribute your abuse as being worse than a child who was raped. Again, it depends on each individual case. And again, both are considered equally vile. It is not just the act of the abuse. It is the damage it does to the child.. psychological damage. Some children are more resilient then others and can bounce back after therapy and treatment. Sadly, the majority are scarred for life by their abuse, be it sexual or physical. Their abuse goes on to rule their life and it clouds how they actually view the world around them.
There is no 'who should be hurt'. There is only hurt.
No. Children are not in the same boat as child abusers. Children are the innocent victims who have been abused (be it sexually, physically or psychologically) by adults who are, at the end of the day, sick bastards who needed their own fix and needed to feel a sense of power and release.
You havn't given any link's for research and i'm not going to start looking on the net for things on paedophilia, Whats the science of sexology who's? john walsh?
I can agree that the media can make thing s a lot more painful hurtful for the victims and families by constant reminder but it does not make them part of the cause of hurt.
The only way a victim and abuser fit into the same boat is that the abuser may have been abused, and the victim may think that it is the norm and then go on to abuse.
Children rely on us for the protection of innocence
Children rely on us for the protection of innocence[/QUOTE]
This is a matter where it's not a just an angree person who is telling the world that child abuse will not be tolerated it's the world telling child abusers that it will not be tolerated. A mother through her kid in a lake in austrelia................... I personally would be there getting ready to hang that bitch form a tree. We have to protect childen from abuse, they look up to us and see us as there protectors. That's a parental thing that childen see. Childen now, are smarter than any other generation but that dose not mean that they can fight for themselfs. I'm not saying go out kill the next abuser you see I'm saying don't let it get to the point that we get a first time abuser. To be honest if a sexual preditor is violenty beaten for molesting a child than maybe he/she will be an example to other sex preditors. The more you strike fear in to the heart of a sex preditor or any abuser for that matter than maybe you might have a chance to get them to think differant. Maybe they will think of there own safty and go about there life like nature intended. I do not condone vilent acts agianst anyone but............... Sometime fear is the only way to get someone to come to there senses. I give myself a wack off the back of the haed when I'm thinking something stupid (ex. hey that chicks got a nice ass.) All that can be said by me at this point is if the consequenses are high for any child abuser or sex offender. except staturetory rape I've seen several couples that where out side those guide lines live happily together.
Oh! And metakran what's the matter are you afaid that we all have a point and your just stuck in the dark. Don't be such a baby your a man act like one! Your gonna get yourself killed one day dude. We see you points on the view this is a tough topic and what is siad must be carefully understood. You have intelligance but this is a matter of parenting. Until you look at it from a parents point of veiw I don't think we'll ever agree on this subject.
I would LOVE to see your evidence on THIS statement. Im assuming your talking about bells, 15ofthe19 and either myself or Pinocchio's Hoof
Now I dont know how much study the other members have gone into on child abuse. Personally i have recived lectures not only on the PREVILANCE of child abuse (and elder abuse to be honest) as well as sexual assult and domestic vilonce but ALSO how to deal with these situations and my legal requirments (even as a student) in dealing with a child who i suspect to have been abused. Now i am VERY MUCH aware that sexual abuse is actually the smallest percentage of abuse among both the elderly and children. In children the largest percentage of abuse is neglect, followed by emotional abuse and then physical abuse with sexual abuse comming last. When dealing with the elderly sexual abuse is again the smallest percentage and is mostly commited by established partners (and then family) rather than strangers. Again its finantial abuse, social abuse, emotional abuse, neglect and physical abuse that are alot more previlent than sexual abuse.
Does this mean that sexual abuse causes no damage?
No its one of the few causes of MPD which proves in and of its HIGHLY damaging. The others are things like witnessing GENOCIDE and WAR or being torched as young children which shows how much damage this form of abuse causes.
Yes depression and suicide are previlent amongst those who have been abused as children, adults and elderly people. How many adults in vilont situations are depressed, or suicidle? but this doesnt in anyway take away from the server damage that is caused by sexual abuse.
Now yes your right jedo christan-tradition DOES demonise sex, this is quite ovious when we look at laws relating to homosexuality, "indecency" laws, prostitution laws ect. Hell one has only to look at the fact that watching someones HEAD blown off has a lower rating than watching someone get a head JOB but this has NOTHING to do with child protection laws.
The reason sex with children is demonoised is because of the harm it does, and no other reason. I have herd stories of BABIES who have been vaginally raped, i have herd of 8 year olds who are PREGNANT not because they have been experimenting but because there step father or worse there OWN father has raped them.
Murder has the smallest rate of crime in Australia. Under your logic this should mean that it has the lowest penelty compared to speeding which is probably the HIGHEST rate of crime (could be minor shoplifting though). So under your logic we would have a fine for murder and life in prision for speeding. This is ridiculas of course because the REASON murder is so low is MAINLY because its concidered to be so horendious that most people wouldnt contemplate it of course. This is the same for sexual abuse amoungst children. However this being said what do we do with those who DO decide to go against this inbuilt prohabition. We either chose to treat them as mentally ill or as criminals (or both of course) and we follow certian procidures in relation to this.
Oh and as to the people who say that "so what if women rape men", I find your atitude sickening. I turn my partner down all the time, I chose when i want to have sex as does my partner. If someone held a knife to my throat and raped me i wouldnt want them to get a DAY less than a man who did it to a women (or a man) would get. Oh and BTW, what if the raped guy was gay? Would HE automatically want to have sex with her? What if she had aids? hep? any other STD? (after all she and her husband were doing this i belive to get her pregnant)
No, I'm definitely not afraid that you all have a point.
I have one cardinal rule: Only rational thinking leads to workable solutions. Irrational thinking has erased the efforts that have made headway in the past, so of course let's go back to this "matter of parenting" thinking and make sure that the cycle of violence never ends.
Pretty much the same thing?
Did you ever contract syphilis from a spanking? How about gonorrhea? HIV? Did your spankings ever leave you shitting blood? To what extent and in what locations were you bruised internally?
Have you ever choked on someone else's penis and your own vomit simultaneously?
Hell, let's skip the abusive part for a moment: how many times have you had a penis inside your body?
There is something different about entering or being entered.
Nobody here doubts that physical abuse is harmful. That's why it's called physical abuse. And, yes, our cultural attitudes toward sex complicate matters of sexual abuse. But when physical abuse of children causes permanent disfigurement the way two minutes of anal sex can—regardless of the rapist's intentions—yes, people get furious.
Consider the difference between physical abuse of a child and verbal/psychological abuse. What would you tell the psychologically abused? "Buck up little camper"? "It ain't so bad"? "At least you're not being spanked"?
Nobody should denigrate the abuse you suffered and survived. Neither should you denigrate the abuse others suffer and survive.
I'm curious how many times you've had a penis inside you because I'm trying to understand your basis for comparison. I've been spanked, but never so abusively as you describe. I've been very well fucked before, but never raped. And I've fucked other people as hard as I could manage before. And, frankly, nothing about those experiences remotely suggests to me that your comparison of different forms of abuse is either rational or fair.
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