Shakyumuni Buddha and the 10 states of consciousness

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by Jozen-Bo, Jan 24, 2008.

  1. Jozen-Bo The Wheel Spinning King!!! Registered Senior Member

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    One of Shakyumuni's most important teachings is that of the 10 states of consciousness, also known as the 10 worlds. It is a teaching the says at any moment all life is in one of these 10 states, without any expection at all. I wanted to see if anyone can find another state not mentioned, is the list really complete? I will now give the list.

    1-Hell...a feeling of hopeless damnation, misery, powerlessness, doom
    2-Hunger...a desire for anything; be it food, sex, love, shelter, money, etc
    3-Animosity...a instictual fight or flight state, stupidity
    4-Anger....distress that brings about action,
    5-Tranquility...calm, bored, unexciting, serene
    6-Rapture....orgasm, wonder, awe, this state is transient, never lasts long
    7-Learning...absorption of knowledge from the outside-takes in
    8-Realization...processing knowledge from the inside-projects
    9-Altruistic...caring for another, genuine freindship...boddhisattva
    10-Enlightenment...clarity , understanding fused with being, buddhahood

    I have pondered many years on these ten, trying to find a state not mentioned, however every state I can think of fits into one of these 10. Maybe you can find one that doesn't, and outwit Buddha?

    The teaching goes even further, within each of these 10 worlds are the 10 worlds repeated. That is, one can learn while being in a state of hell, or one can have a rapturous orgasm while realizing many things. A while ago I tried to compose a list of how these mix into 100 states (but didn't finnish it), and I tried to find english words for each one...example...Jealousy. If I am right it contains and is dominated by both hunger and anger.

    So first, can we undermine this list? Second, if not, can we complete the list by finding words for each of the 100 states contained within its matrix?
     
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  3. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    How do you know this is one of Gautama's teachings?

    There is an enormous body of texts written hundreds of years after his death which are falsely attributed to him.
     
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  5. Jozen-Bo The Wheel Spinning King!!! Registered Senior Member

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    I have read many of the sutras- its all over in the Lotus Sutra..."you of the two vehicles (learning and realization)..."humanity is trapped in the 6th world" (meaning humans seldom aspire beyond rapture and comfort)! These are not exact phrases, but the meaning is basically the same.My parents are both Buddhists. They taught me a great deal. There is an orginazation world wide called Nicheren Shoshu and another called the Sokai Gokkai. It is one of the basics of any Essentail Mahayan practise, not hinyana (probalbly mispelled that).

    There are 82,000 sutras, and the most important are the Dainichi (daimond), the Lotus Sutra (like the Sun of all sutras), and the Nirvana Sutra (like the Moon of all sutras). All 3refer numerously to 1 of the 10 worlds. This is uber basic. If you are still doubting, I will easily gather evidence. Buddhism is one of my specialties, I spent the first half of my life studying and practising.

    Heck with it, here:

    "To begin we must explain what each concept means. The 10 worlds are life conditions that an entity of life manifest from moment to moment with changing conditions. The 10 worlds are hell, hunger, animality, anger, humanity or tranquillity, and rapture or heaven, which compose the lower 6 worlds. These worlds work in close relation to the power and influence of the environment that a person is experiencing. Learning, realization, bodhisattva and Buddhahood compose the 4 noble worlds and require individual effort to maintain oneself in them. The 10 aspects or factors of life are 1.appearance (form and color of all things), 2.nature (spiritual properties of one’s mind and all things), 3.entity (the fusion of body and mind that forms the person’s complete being or physical and spiritual aspects of all things), 4.power (the energy of a person’s life that allows him to act a specific way in each of the 10 worlds), 5.influence (the volitional activities of words, thoughts and actions that are characteristic of which world the person is in; ie. Anger or Hunger). The next 4 factors are related to the concept of time, were as power and influence correspond to space and it’s energetic and dynamic properties. The first 3 are related to life itself. 6.Internal or inherent cause is one’s karma and is the seed of the experience a person will have when the right cause and condition manifest for an effect to occur. Example, if a person has a predisposition to get skin cancer (inherent cause), he must be in the right condition for this potential to manifest (external cause); in the sun on a very hot day for an extensive amount of time. 7.External cause being the next factor that corresponds to influence from the environment or other sentient beings. 8.Latent effect is the reaction to the phenomena internally by the individual to the manifested effect which is the skin cancer that was produced by the stimulation of the inherent cause (karma) by the environment (external cause), which produced the 9.manifested effect (observable outcome of a person’s past actions-causes). 10.Consistancy from beginning to end. Beginning corresponds to 1.appearence and end corresponds to 9.manifested effect (in Buddhism we call this actual proof) or the results of one’s actions in life (benefit or suffering as the result of correct or incorrect religious belief). Another way to look at this is the relationship between the body (appearance) and shadow (manifest effect). When the body is crooked the shadow is also cooked. If a person’s actions are distorted originating from a distorted mind (oneness of body and mind)-shiki shin funi, his results in his life will also take on that distortion in the form of suffering (shadow)-manifested effect. This ultimately means that all suffering that manifest in one’s environment is directly related to the individual’s mind or the collective mind’s of all the people in that environment. This is the principle of Esho funi, the oneness of life (body) and it’s environment (shadow)."

    Here's the site were I gathered this

    http://www.proudblackbuddhist.org/ichinen_sanzen_the_jewel_of_budd.htm

    Its not new to me...and the internet is full of information about it. Type in '10 worlds buddhism' or 'Ichinen Sanzen'. Ichinen Sanzen is a little more complex, so I left it out of this thread. It explains how the 10 worlds with the 10 worlds multiply with the 10 factors and 3 states of existence to amke 3000 possible states of being at any given second.
     
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  7. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    I don't take that stuff seriously. People are fond of classification systems, even when real life is more of a spectrum of experience.
     
  8. Jozen-Bo The Wheel Spinning King!!! Registered Senior Member

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    Your use of the word spectrum is quite interesting. This is an attempt to know that spectrum as though we know the colors of the rainbow. From the worst experiences being in the state of misery...hell, to the best being happiness...enlightenment. Certainly there are states in between just as the rainbow contains several colors within its spectrum.
     
  9. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    But the rainbow doesn't contain separate colors, it's a continuum, out of which humans decide to give certain ranges of color certain names.
     
  10. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    These teachings may be basic to Mahayana Buddhism, but the founder of Buddhism didnt create Mahayana, or write any of the major Sutras you mentioned. These teachings were developed hundreds of years after his death, and falsely attributed to him as a way of giving them authenticity.

    Mind you, these doesnt mean they are wrong, just falsely attritbuted.
     
  11. Jozen-Bo The Wheel Spinning King!!! Registered Senior Member

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    I do believe your information is incorrect. History recognizes Shakyumuni as the expounder of those sutras. Its almost beyond question. Do you have a powerful source that can give a strong argument in the face of historical facts? A link? I would have to examine it carefully. What evidence can you present?

    History recognizes that the teaches were at first handed down orally, and that the Indians, who meditated daily, had superb memories. As time went one, their memories and meditation dwindled, though they managed to write down the sutras to perseve them before this receded enough to distort the sutras themselves.

    Shall I begin finding any of the mass body of sources to back this up?
     
  12. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    The history of those sutras doesn't matter. It's not like Christianity, where the authority of the author matters. In Budddhism, the only thing that matters is if the statements are worthy.
     
  13. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    There is no history Jozen. History is only possible when there is a scholarship outside the tradition itself, looking in from outside. What goes on among Buddhist writers is not history because they are not objective.

    Remember that there was a wealth of philosophical writings in Buddha's time which he rejected. His teaching was not a philosophical discourse on the nature of reality or epistemology.

    In fact he was quoted as saying in the earliest texts that "philosophy purifies none...peace alone does."

    He was only interested in feeling, and described enlightenment only as the gradual release from the feeling of suffering.

    So, the whole thrust of his original teaching is contrary to later philosophical developments within Buddhism, which borrowed much from the contemporary trends in Hinduism.
     
  14. sowhatifit'sdark Valued Senior Member

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    Fear - is not anger and is not hell (at least he should relabel anger, distress, though I don't think distress really fits anger.
    Satisfaction - which to me is not rapture since it is much calmer to me
    Curiousity - and if this is supposed to go in hunger, I cannot see what the problem is with it. In other words there is tendency to see hunger for things as not so good. But curiousity seems just fine to me. So do some of the others under hunger, including hunger itself, but I picked a less controversial word.
     
  15. Jozen-Bo The Wheel Spinning King!!! Registered Senior Member

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    "The history of those sutras doesn't matter. It's not like Christianity, where the authority of the author matters. In Budddhism, the only thing that matters is if the statements are worthy."

    I have to agree! This could extend to Life, where the worthy statements matter more then distorted, or worthless ones. So...I ultimately don't care so much about the history as I do the application of the statements. Thats where the juice is to be found.

    As to Christianity, authority only matters if you are a Christian or follower of the bible.



    Fear - as I see it fear is a mixture of animosity and hell in that the fight or flight mechanism is at work (Animal behavior), fear is an instinctual responce, and in that it is the responce of hopeless or powerless deduction (hell). But there are different kinds of fear. So they may need to be distinguished. One fear stops you from thinking clearly, another stops you from taking acting, and still another causes you to run away. I then place the basic idea as being
    hell dominated by animosity or animosity being dominated by hell.

    Distress - Certainly not tranquility! Not anger either. It could be a mixture of Animosity and realization? In that, one is distressed by a certain awareness that is incomplete. Distress hampers the ability to think...so animosity would have to be in the mix.

    Satisfaction - You have already described the mix. It would be rapture (pleasant) mixed with tranquility (calm). One would be dominating the other, determining the level of satisfaction...for example, "He was satisfied but not as much as she". Satisfied with the answer?

    Curiousity - It would have to contain some element of hunger. It is desire for knowledge or experience of something. It sounds like a mixture of Hunger (desire) and learning, since people who learn best do so when they are curious and interested.

    So if:
    Fear=hell ruled by animosity
    Distress=realization ruled by animosity
    Satisfaction=rapture ruled by tranquility
    Curiousity=hunger ruled by learning

    Then what is
    animosity ruled by hell=?
    animosity ruled by realization=?
    tranquility ruled by rapture=?
    learning ruled by hunger=?

    I appreciate your giving an thoughtful answer to this. These might be answers to 4 positions of the 10x10 matrix of moods.
     
  16. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    Wheres the juice???

    Thats the big question.

    Is it to be found in the worship of idols?

    The study of information about enlightenment?

    Or, as the example of Buddha himself demonstrates, is it to be found only in meditation?
     
  17. sowhatifit'sdark Valued Senior Member

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    I disagree and to me this feels like trying to get a square peg in a round hole. As if it must be right because so and so said it, so I will make it fit. Fear is not animosity which has much more to with aggression. It is not helpless either since it often initiates effective evasion, for example. We also have a third alternative when our little adrenals get triggered which is freezing. In this state we feel less pain, but I could relate the state to helplessness since the body has determined that neither flight nor attack will work.

    fraid not. Rapture is just too ecstatic to me. To say tranquil rapture is an oxymoron for me.



    Fine, but hunger is seen as a lower state. I can see no reason to see curiousity as in anyway problematic or less than enlightenment. Why not a moment of enlightenment where one is curious? For example. Also curiosity does not have to come from a lack.

    Just consider for a moment that the Buddha may have developed a system and set of descriptions that was very good there in that culture and given the point in history we, as a species, had reached. But now perhaps, his ideas can be improved on.
     
  18. Jozen-Bo The Wheel Spinning King!!! Registered Senior Member

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    Carano,

    "Wheres the juice??? Thats the big question."

    Let me spell it out to you...If you can quickly identify what state of mind you are in then you have more power to control that state of mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    GET IT?

    "Is it to be found in the worship of idols?"

    A...This topic has nothing to do with idols.
    B...No.


    "The study of information about enlightenment?
    Or, as the example of Buddha himself demonstrates, is it to be found only in meditation?"

    Yes, the study of eastern philosophy is valuable! Are you saying we should toss it out? Wipe it clean, since, as you put it..."there is no history"?
    I find that a very hard statement to take seriously...No History?

    Hey everyone!!! World War 1 and 2 never happened!!!

    Do you ever meditate?
    And if so...how?
     
  19. Jozen-Bo The Wheel Spinning King!!! Registered Senior Member

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    1,597
    "I disagree and to me this feels like trying to get a square peg in a round hole. As if it must be right because so and so said it, so I will make it fit."

    I never said it must be right. Its just an idea. Maybe it is wrong. Give me an explanation and I'll consider it. I am trying to find out what is possible within this myself.


    "Fear is not animosity which has much more to with aggression. It is not helpless either since it often initiates effective evasion, for example. We also have a third alternative when our little adrenals get triggered which is freezing. In this state we feel less pain, but I could relate the state to helplessness since the body has determined that neither flight nor attack will work."

    As I said, fear is tricky to pin down. You just mentioned the 3 first types I mentioned as well. Aggression surely is the fight machenism of animosity (fight or flight) and has some connection to anger...which spurs action. Helpless fear is a real fear that causes one not to act. In a fight they freeze...seen it myself

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    Identifying the different types of fear is indeed helpful.



    ”fraid not. Rapture is just too ecstatic to me. To say tranquil rapture is an oxymoron for me."

    Satisfaction could be described as rapture turning into tranquility.
    Ecstatic might be rapture in rapture...the peak of rapture. Would you say there is a time when using the word rapture fits better or when ecstatic fits better?

    "Fine, but hunger is seen as a lower state. I can see no reason to see curiousity as in anyway problematic or less than enlightenment. Why not a moment of enlightenment where one is curious? For example. Also curiosity does not have to come from a lack."

    You have a good point.

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    I can't say for sure if that which 2 of the 3 aspects overrule the others.
    It certainly isn't problematic. Neither is hunger(desire), then again, as without it we cannot survive.

    When I think about myself being curious, it comes to my mind that I want the enlightenment of the understanding or experience that draws forth the curiosity. Without being curious, I am far less likely to encounter that understanding or experience.
    I suppose I put it there because usually when one is curious there is a delay of time before that curiosity concludes, and the conclusion isn't always desired...as in the saying curiosity killed the cat.

    It is strangely a feature of enlightenment too. Enlightened people tend to be curious about things, and so they gather the awareness, knowledge, and understanding that makes them enlightened if their curiosity succeeds them.

    "Just consider for a moment that the Buddha may have developed a system and set of descriptions that was very good there in that culture and given the point in history we, as a species, had reached. But now perhaps, his ideas can be improved on."


    I agree entirely!

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  20. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    Not at all...lots of very intelligent people have no trouble identifying whatever problematic state of mind they are in.

    What they have difficulty with is figuring out *how* to get out of it.

    And even if they succeed in this they may not have the will to do what is neccessary.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2008
  21. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    Toss it out? Most of it yes.

    When I refer to history this doesnt mean things never happened, it means that in the case of Buddhism there is little in way of independent analysis contemporary with its significant events.

    For example, the writings of ancient Christian writers is not considered by historians to be a good source of history about Christianity. They are more convinced by a non-Christian writer speaking of Jesus than a Christian one who will naturally be biased.

    The first thing one realizes when studying Buddhist texts is that they can be just as dishonest as with any other religion.
     
  22. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    Meditation is not a verb Jozen, not a practise.

    If you are trying very hard to meditate...you can be sure you are not in meditation.
     
  23. Jozen-Bo The Wheel Spinning King!!! Registered Senior Member

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    "What they have difficulty with is figuring out *how* to get out of it."

    I see it all the time.

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    :
    I myself am pretty good at changing moods on a whim.
    Some call it emotional intelligence.
    I'm just asking myself if I understand it as good as I assume?


    "And even if they succeed in this they may not have the will to do what is neccessary."

    I can't find any way to disagree.

    "Even if you find a great map to your destination you may not have the work ethic required to get there."

    I know I might fuck it up!?! Thanks!!!







    "Toss it out? Most of it yes."

    Why?

    "When I refer to history this doesnt mean things never happened, it means that in the case of Buddhism there is little in way of independent analysis contemporary with its significant events."

    For example, the writings of ancient Christian writers is not considered by historians to be a good source of history about Christianity. They are more convinced by a non-Christian writer speaking of Jesus than a Christian one who will naturally be biased."

    OK. You had me worried.:bugeye: (just kidding)

    When it comes to history...the further back we go the fuzzier it becomes.


    "The first thing one realizes when studying Buddhist texts is that they can be just as dishonest as with any other religion."

    You mean they contradict themselves over and over again? I have caught on myself.

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    I got upset at first...damn crap!!! But I started to see through the contradiction in some of them...how the "Lies" were actually complements to make a complete picture. I am not saying this applies to everything that is out there...but I have noticed it more then once.





    Do you ever meditate?
    And if so...how?

    Meditation is not a verb Jozen, not a practise.

    He meditated on the meaning of meditate? Meditation was indeed not a verb, but was meditate?

    "If you are trying very hard to meditate...you can be sure you are not in meditation."

    Well said.
    Meditation can take on many forms.
    I've seen thousands of meditation techniques.
    Yoga and tantra are well documented for their benefits for health.
    Meditation is another one of those loose words.
    There are so many ways to refer to it.
     

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