Crisp Crisp! I almost totally agree with you. Please back up my little thread on the 'New York World Trade Center' thread. I'm also starting to think all the Americans want is blood. If I didnt know some personally myself then I would believe that.
I'm an american. I have very strong and confused emotions right now. There are a lot of good arguments in this thread, and a lot of scary ones. First, I have to say that I sincerely hope that NO ONE that has access to nuclear weapons is willing to use them. And have felt that way for as long as I can remember. To me, considering the use of nuclear weapons is pure insanity. ____________________ I forget who it was that posted it, but I was sorry to read that someone had more respect for the terrorists than they do for Americans right now. America has taken no action on this, so I'm confused as to how you can already condemn our actions. Yes, we have said it's an act of war and that we will retaliate. We have also, however, said that this is new kind of enemy and a difficult one to fight. It does not sound to me like our government is planning on indiscriminately dropping bombs on innocent people's homes. And I know it's difficult to tell from some American's posts on this particular thread, but I don't think that the vast majority of Americans would support such action. Most of the people I know personally AND the people I've heard on the radio/television think we need to be extremely careful in whatever action we DO decide to take, and I think that our government (actually to my surprise) is sensitive those feelings. There was another comment, that there should be security people on every airplane and that airplane crews should be trained in hand to hand combat. I agree completely and have wondered why it's not so on many occasions. It would not only make air travel safer, but would supply more people with more jobs. I have always assumed it's because the airlines would be sacrificing the profits on the seats that security people would have to occupy, and to train employees in hand to hand combat would take more money than the corporations are willing to spend on safe travel. There is a fundamental problem with the mentality of our pursuit of money/power over the concern for the lives of people. Right now, it appears, to me, that a lot of Americans are seriously re-examining their priorities in life. I hope that some "good" can come of this through that re-examination, and that Americans begin to show more consideration for our fellow human beings. And there was another comment that questioned whether anyone had considered that this could have been an "inside" job pulled off by Americans. I, for one, certainly have. While I have trouble dismissing the idea, I also have trouble believing that Americans would do this thing. For one, I think it would be supremely difficult to recruit suicide bombers (I don't really know what else to call them) out of the American population. Americans have a strong social sense about being able to see the results of their work. I've even considered the possibility of one our own government organizations masterminding it solely for the purpose of getting further funding and/or more legal jurisdiction. I'm not saying I think it's impossible, but Americans as a whole have big egos and are not a likely group from which to find that kind of fanatical dedication. --- And from a more emotional point of view, I have trouble believing that Americans could bring themselves to destroy the Twin Towers in NYC, I know that this disbelief is driven by emotion, but I have to express it. If it had only been the pentagon, I would have less emotional difficulty with accepting that Americans would attack it. Plenty of Americans have a very strong dislike for our government. But to bring down the twin towers ---- I don't want to believe that Americans would do that. Even so, I have my doubts. The incredible speed and volume of evidence that's surfacing definitely bothers me. It seems too neat. And it definitely seems too abundant. For now, I don't know what to do about it, but hope that all this information is a result of strong dedication to the investigation. There was a comment about understanding our enemy and being able to think like them. I don't know about the American masses, but I'm positive that our military leaders understand that necessity very well. In my opinion, we do need to go after known terrorists and at least attempt to put them out of operation. I have mixed feelings on violent retaliation. On one hand, I think that it's possible that the only way to "deal" with the people that are already "terrorists" is with violence. On the other hand, I think we need to take a good hard look, and this time "we" is not just America, at what conditions create these "terrorists", and make moves to end those conditions. This will take a committed global effort, that I would be surprised to witness in my lifetime. This attack has opened the door to a new level of "terrorism". The manner in which it was carried out was definitely terrorist in style, but it was more devistating by far than any other attack of that style, anywhere. The sudden snuffing out of what it looks like will turn out to be around 5000 people definitely IS within the scope of an act of war. Do you think that there aren't other terrorist organizations that are thinking of just how easy it was to do this, and are re-thinking their ideas of what kind of attacks to make? Right now, I think America is willing to be the enforcers when it comes to catching or killing known terrorists, and by doing so, I think we would be doing the rest of the world a favor in the process. After all, is there even one country that has fewer occurances of terrorist attacks than America? I would think that most countries would be more willing to let us get rid of their pests or turn those pests over to some authority rather than risk incurring our military wrath. And I hope that simple cooperation in some way, shape or form is good enough for the American government. There definitely could be problems if we decide we want Osama bin Laden. I know the taliban said they would turn bin Laden over to an Islamic court if we could prove his guilt in this incident. And positive identification of the true perpretrators may not be possible. He IS however, a known terrorist, and we may decide we want him whether we can prove his guilt in this or not. I hope that if we decide we want to enter a country, either to capture or kill known terrorists, that that country's government cooperates. We are quite capable of performing surgical strikes without killing civilians, but I don't think we're in the mood to take "no" for an answer. I also hope that my government is considering the fact that killing and/or capturing known terrorists is not going put a stop to terrorism, and is not only willing, but compelled to help put a stop to the conditions that create that mindset. But like I said before, putting an end to those conditions will take a committed global effort, not just a change in American foreign policy. I hope I'm wrong and that we CAN see that kind of global cooperation in the near future, but if I'm not, then I'm perfectly willing to continue to be viewed as the ugly American because we go ahead and kill a few terrorists before they can do something similar to the attack on NYC.
it isn't just blood It isn't that Americans necessarily want blood, it is that we wan't justice. Those who did this need to be punished, they do need too die. They murdered possibly 20,000+. Justice often requires death and blood. In this case those who are innocent will die. American soldiers will die, innocent civilians will die but this is part of the cost of this justice. I believe in above all freedom. These people attacked American freedom. They want us too eliminate due proccess that would make us deny plane travel too someone suspected of terrorism. Tighten up freedoms and violate the constitution to prevent this again. This cannont be done. Instead of restricting freedoms in the U.S. we must seek justice too show that terrorism will not be tolerated. If we do not strike back it will show no believe in the freedoms we believe in and we show terrorists that such acts will be tolerated. Too me it is not blood that I want it is justice and defense of freedom.
mpfunk well said! I would like to say that right now my emotions run a multitude of paths. I am sure that there are those who do not agree with the thoughts that I have expressed here. Some have already posted to the effect. Sometime later I will cool down but when it is all said and done, I want justice! Not a trumpted up victum to be offered to the masses. I want the perputrators to have some of their own. In that I do not think it is possible to give them what I would wish upon them. But this has to be dealt with. It must be in such a manner that those who would consider terorism an option would think twice before resultng to such activites again. I for one would want every terrorist group rounded up to pay for those crimes they are responcible for. This may not be easy, but it should be the goal.
Hi Wet1, I am almost 100% certain that Osama Bin Laden is this trumped up "victim" for the masses (even though "victim" is perhaps the wrong word - the man is not innocent for previous attacks). The classical "one man is behind it" trick appearantly still succeeds in reassuring national secutiry amongst people. Bye! Crisp
There are only two great possibilities: 1. Osama has a large network which extends to other places such as Saudi, Syria, Labanon, Egypt etc. and the plot could come from a terrorist in Lebanon who happens to be a school teacher. In this case the entire US military has to go after a school teacher turned terrorist - it is just not macho. Even then, Osama is guilty by association and support with money. Besides, we have a major score to settle due to Cole attack and Embassy bombings.... 2. Osama and his group plotted this from Afganistan with tacit approval from Talibans. Never underestimate the enemy. They said it in 60 minutes as to how they can do it. They said, only two people can take out the White House. They also said, they could take out 100,000 to 200,000. This was broadcast in CBS. Our NSA was sleep at the wheels. Either way...Osama is guilty. And if we do not respond, there will be copycats. So, we must. But, we can work on solving the bigger issue too. If we do not, we know what will happen.
Crisp-Thank you for not taking offense to my opening line. It was way out of character for me and I apologize for my utter lack of tact. I posted to Captain Canada in another thread, and I now realize that some people, especially in the international scene, may not have heard this, but the war is to be carried out not against any one nation or person. The war is to be carried out against terrorism. This isn't as vague as the War on Drugs. We know who they are, we know where they are. Not every country where they operate is willingly or even knowingly harboring terrorists. Some sort of criteria should be set up to determine whether or not a country is knowingly harboring terrorists. If they are not aware, they should cooperate with the allied forces to exterminate them or else be considered an ally of the terrorists and therefore an enemy. We have to get serious about this. This is a nightmare that we are fighting. My brother was trying to affect macho poses, acting as though the attack didn't phase him in the slightest. I guess he finally realized that Bruce Willis, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and Mel Gibson were't heroically popping up to spout off a clever line or two and save the day. It's not a movie. It's not TV. It's not the crafty work of a special effects department. It's real, and I have actually found something on the positive side to this whole thing. We are shocked. We are horrified. We are angry. We are sad. Well, so much for all of our movies, TV shows and record albums making us immune to death and violence, hey? What do the censors say about that?
"And if we do not respond, there will be copycats" I couldn't possibly agree more with this statement. Three things will be accomplished by the actions that the U.S. will take against these terrorists; it will deter others from committing these acts against the U.S., it will satisfy the need for justice, and finally and most importantly it will be a statement about how precious freedom is the American people and how much we will fight for it.
<i>"The more you speak, the more I get convinced the only thing the American citizen screams for is blood."</i> Hmm... I want selective bleeding, Crisp. It's gotta be done. Think of it as being a public service--like shooting a rabid dog.
There are no rules in Love and War - and a fatwah was decreed by Bin Laden, oh....about 3 YEARS AGO....HELLO!!!!!!! What were the idiots at the ECHELON thinking? I'm sure the intel was there but lazy, vacation worried....401k dreamin'....white collared morons were too busy surfin' porn to actually spend maybe 6-7 hours of the day WORKING and trying to protect the populace. Or this could be what the New World Order wants....to destabilize the American psyche in order to implement more CONTROL...which we will gladly give over after this. I WON'T GIVE IN.......WHO WILL JOIN ME? ____________________________________________________ "Nothing would be what it is, Because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary-wise -what it is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?" - Alice in Wonderland.
oh yeah......by the way...OOOOPA! http://library.northernlight.com/HA20010913450000013.html?cb=0&dx=1006&sc=0#doc makes ya wonder....
<i>"Or this could be what the New World Order wants....to destabilize the American psyche in order to implement more CONTROL...which we will gladly give over after this."</i> Well, collussion is apparent these days. Can it be much worse? How could a global union serve us in this crisis? Here's a curious translation for those who are interested: http://www.vt.edu/vt98/academics/books/koran/koran I would be happy to see more links to more translations.
More crap..... http://www.anomalous-images.com/news/news691.html How would this situtation serve us? It's not supposed to serve us but serve them! (if you subscribe to the premise). Read this as well......http://www.rense.com/general13/alice.htm ......if conspiracy-shorts were candy, you'd die of diabetes from this one...loved-it!
Hi mpfunk, Here's my point of view. Three things will be accomplished by the actions that the U.S. will take against those terrorists: 1. It will encourage existing terrorist organisations to strike even harder against US targets all over the world, or - if the US actually succeeds in killing all terrorist organisations - lay a good foundation for terrorists that are now young and in 20 years will strike back. 2. It will satisfy the public's opinion on justice, not the international laws that define justice. 3. It will state how eager the American people are for war. It has been 10 years already. Bye! Crisp
<i>"1. It will encourage existing terrorist organisations to strike even harder against US targets all over the world, or - if the US actually succeeds in killing all terrorist organisations - lay a good foundation for terrorists that are now young and in 20 years will strike back."</i> We must be vigilant. <i>"2. It will satisfy the public's opinion on justice, not the international laws that define justice."</i> We will see. You're jumping to conclusions before the fact has been established. <i>"3. It will state how eager the American people are for war. It has been 10 years already."</i> Yes, all we need is a day of terror and 5,000 dead.
Crisp You sould pop over to Afghanistan & convince them of your views. I am sure we would all be grateful
"The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for something they can't get and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time is made good by looting A to satisfy B. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is sort of an advance auction sale of stolen goods."
Re: "And if we do not respond, there will be copycats" I don't understand what would give you that idea. They are not afraid of us or death or torture. I think the US is a little eager for a scapegoat. By attacking people in the Middle East, we are going to create martyrs AND more-resolved, more-angry enemies right along with those martyrs. No. MAYBE actually getting the mastermind of this operation would, but I doubt we will ever get undisputible proof as to whom that was. The US government is already saying in not-so-many-words that they are willing to bomb civilian cities in countries who's governments won't cooperate with us in our war on terrorism. That is far from justice. ???? Freedom to do what? Listen, we trained Osama bin Laden, financed his cause and supplied him with weapons in the 1980's so that he could kill Russians. He is far from the only terrorist OUR government has helped become very skilled...........So, what, are we free to create these highly trained killers so that they can kill people in other countries, and if they hide in a country that they've already been terrorizing, we are free to kill that country's citizens? What it will show, is exactly the disregard for people-not-american that has earned us this kind of hatred already. I know that the civilians of American didn't deserve what we got on Tuesday, but neither do the civilians of any other country. But I won't sound too convincing if we start bombing the hell out innocent civilians, and the people of America are seen to be joyous over the occasion.
Amen (not that I'm gettin' religion or anything). Read it and weep, people. Extremely well said, Malaclypse.
