Should Christians judge God?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Greatest I am, Nov 21, 2013.

  1. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    3,740
    Should Christians judge God?

    Many have read the scriptures and come away at the end with a poor impression of God’s morals. This judgement stands apart of their belief or non-belief in God and the bible God is rejected purely on moral grounds.

    Many Christians on the other hand seem give God a pass and exonerate their God’s more outrageous and immoral actions. I myself have noticed that Christians have a double set of morals. One for God and another for man. They praise and adore God for the same actions that they condemn man for. I see this as Christians judging God incorrectly.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ODetOE6cbbc

    I have been told on a number of occasions, only by Christians, ---- that inferior mind like our human minds cannot judge God and that we should not even try to judge God as his ways are not our ways, which flies in the face of ----- as above, so below. This indicates that the morality of God is the same as the morality of man and scriptures seem to agree.

    Gen 3;22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

    Is it good advice to not judge God as Christians say, --- or should God be judged?

    Regards
    DL
     
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  3. IfIonlyhadabrain Registered Member

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    I would say that those who have moral authority have the authority to judge moral action. But where does authority of any kind come from? Does it simply arise from experience? Is it conferred? Jesus told Pilate that he had no authority except that which was given from above (i.e., by God). So does moral authority also come from God?

    If God is the creator of all, then moral principle, and therefore moral authority is derived from Him, from His being. If moral authority, then, is conferred to us by God, then how can we use that authority to condemn God? To say this is possible is to simultaneously deny our own moral authority. This is because, in condemning the source of our own moral authority, we would be condemning our own moral authority. It's a contradiction. We cannot simultaneously claim moral authority and deny its source.

    So, in order to allow for the possibility of judging God, you would need to assert that moral authority is not derived from Him. If so, then from whence does it come?

    As a side note, I generally hold to two principles when regarding the actions of God in the OT. First, I hold that much that is attributed to God in the OT is mis-attribution (that is, much that is said to have been done by God was only so from a human perspective, and not actually done by God). Second, I hold that spiritual death is greater than physical death, and if physical death was necessary in order to preserve spiritual life, then the preservation of spiritual life supercedes the preservation of physical life. Thus, one might argue that God acted morally in causing human death if it could be shown that doing so lead to spiritual life. This idea is upheld throughout nature, where death is necessary to either sustain, or to produce new life. It is a principle of the universe we live in.
     
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  5. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    Either our understanding of what is or is not moral is accurate - in which case we could judge a god, or our understanding of what is or is not moral is inaccurate in which case one cannot make any statement to the goodness of a god. You might claim that our good and a gods good differ, but then to call such god good or its actions good would have no meaning.
     
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  7. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    Well put.

    Regards
    DL
     
  8. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    If it could be shown sure but it cannot be shown.

    Does that mean then that God acted in an immoral way?

    Your own words say yes it seems. I agree.

    SnakeLord spoke to one issue so let me take another angle.

    You seem to think that God has developed a moral sense. Morals develop only in species that live in groups. God never lived in a group so he would never have developed a moral sense. There wound not be a need for it.

    Scriptures show that even before men were created as well as the possibility for sin, God chose to have Jesus murdered to forgive whatever sin might come in the future.

    Do you think that that was a moral decision when he could forgive us in many moral ways instead of punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?

    Another quick question if I may.

    Should out moral sense or first moral tenets be self-centered, ---- or should it center on others?
    Should God's moral sense be the same?

    Regards
    DL
     
  9. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    Matthew 7:1-3

    King James Version (KJV)

    1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

    2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

    3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
     
  10. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks for contributing garbage.

    Regards
    DL
     
  11. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    ...pot...kettle...black...!!!???

    Actually, Mr. Greatest I am, MacGyver1968 was only quoting from the fictional text that you seem to confuse as the literal words of someone that you refuse to respect but constantly proffer Judgement upon!

    Personally, I thought that MacGyver1968's Post was the first Post on this thread that was NOT garbage...but alas...one of the few gods(sic) Posting on this Forum (Mr. Greatest I am) will...as always...only see his own aberrant point of view...
     
  12. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    When anything negative is pointed out about their god, theists say we cannot judge god yet they are judging just as much when they claim positives about their ImaginaryFiend.

    "God good!"
    "God bad!"
    "Can't judge god! You dirty heathen!"
     
  13. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    5,300
    If we reword that to 'Should human beings judge religious texts and traditions that claim to somehow reveal God?', then I'll answer 'yes'.

    I don't see how anyone can avoid it. There are existential choices that human beings simply have to make.

    Human beings live in a world of religious diversity. Many different religious paths exist. (Including atheism, which is itself a path in this sense, since it's a choice that people make regarding religion.) We find ourselves in the position of having to decide (somehow) which path (if any) to follow and determine (somehow) that the direction that we choose in life is the right one (at least for us). Even if the fact of religious diversity wasn't true, even if there was only one single path, we would still be faced with the question of whether or not that path is worthy of our setting out upon it.

    And being human, I don't see what alternative we have but to judge religions, religious traditions and the contents of religious texts in our own human terms. If we are going to call God 'good', then 'good' needs to mean (at least) what it means when we call other humans 'good'. If we decide instead that 'good' can mean anything whatsoever when it's applied to 'God', then we are basically saying that the word 'good' means nothing at all when it's applied to God.
     
  14. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong... but are't all religious texts written... well... by humans? Haven't we put our own perspectives and thoughts and opinions into these holy scriptures?

    ... just something to think about
     
  15. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    Atheism may be a path yet I did not choose it any more than I chose a path of 2 + 2 does not = 7. I cannot choose to believe in any omnipotent asshole god without proof.
     
  16. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    5,300
    If I recall correctly, that's from Jesus' 'Sermon on the Mount', a passage that I'm inclined to like, all in all.

    Jesus had just gotten done talking in Matthew 6 about how people shouldn't perform good acts and ostentatious prayers and fasts just in order to look good. People should do the right things because they are the right things, not in order to look better than the next person.

    Then he goes on to say that people shouldn't go around putting their neighbors down as sinners either. People should concentrate on getting their own lives right, not in feeling empty pride because other people supposedly are even worse than they are.

    Another place where Jesus makes the same point is Luke 18, where a pharisee is all full of pride in himself, thinking that he isn't a sinner like the wretched publican (tax-collector for the Romans) next to him. That man isn't comparing himself to anybody, but rather is making a heart-felt prayer to God: 'I'm a sinner, please forgive me'. Jesus suggests that the repentent sinner is more likely to make it into heaven than the pharisee all filled with his own moral superiority.

    I kind of like that.

    I'm not sure if judging God is the same kind of thing though.

    It might be if we were just motivated by some juvenile desire to feel that we are superior even to God himself. Even if God doesn't exist (and I'm an atheist), that kind of self-aggrandizement seems unhealthy by its nature. Non-theistic Buddhists are extremely leery of that kind of motivation too.

    But if somebody is seeking some path in life, I don't see how he or she can avoid making some existential judgement about whether this or that alternative is the way to go.

    And if (as in the theistic religious case) each alternative is purporting to be the true depiction of, and the true path to God, making that kind of choice would seem to entail making a judgement about the suitability of the vision that each path presents.
     
  17. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    Until some god gets up the courage to come out of hiding & show itself, we cannot judge a god yet we judge concepts & claims of gods. The god portrayed in the HolyBabble clearly has horrible morals compared to mine. 1 of the most astounding aspects of theism is how they can claim that depraved monster is good. I definitely am superior to that. What is unhealthy is thinking that is a good source of morals. If some god should show up, why should it not be judged as everyone is. Might does not make right.
     
  18. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    Yes. He was quoting a text that has produced, what, 3,000 different interpretations of what he put without telling us which interpretation he wants us to take. That is why it remains garbage.

    Other than that, you always go for the personal, so, --- Bite me.

    Regards
    DL
     
  19. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    Reciprocity is fair play in all major theologies and philosophies yet Christians cannot suffer it. And they are supposed to be so good.

    Regards
    DL
     
  20. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    I hate being humbled. Good clear thinking.

    My only comment is that you are showing what people should be doing, not what they are doing.

    I see few judging the Gods but do see many just following the family God that they have had for many generations. Most follow tradition and culture and I don't think they think much about religion at all.

    I do not recall the religion in the Netherlands but out of the 100% who claim that religion as their own, only about 4% ever set foot in a church.

    I will not call that hypocrisy. I will call it a white lie for the sake of tradition and culture.

    Regards
    DL
     
  21. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    Absolutely correct and that is why Gnostic Christians preach that any religious myth, and they are all myths, should only be used for internal absorption as a means of stimulating the pineal gland and forcing enlightenment.

    The West has taken all of the Eastern insight out of the bible. Not all of it though.

    Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

    Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

    Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

    John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

    Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Regards
    DL
     
  22. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    Well put.

    Regards
    DL
     
  23. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    When you know perfection you can judge one another, and God.
     

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