Should men have a say in abortion ?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by RainbowSingularity, May 25, 2019.

  1. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    16,272
    I agree. Vaccination as a prerequisite for schooling seems like a good intermediate step.
     
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  3. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    i think it should be more about the human rights of the child

    i think living baby's and children, should not have their rights to vaccinations denied by anyone.
     
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  5. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    I didn't ask you to align with anything.
     
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  7. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    "yes no i didnt " ?

    you get my point though ?
    the elusive miss direction of your leading point.
    why not post your moral comparative and then post your moral position to argue ?
     
  8. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    Seldom.
     
  9. spidergoat Venued Serial Memberlist Valued Senior Member

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    I wouldn't go that far unless there was an epidemic.
     
  10. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Good point. No, you're right. We could take a harder line with some of these people. There are pluses and minuses to that, and I have written quite a lot on that topic in earlier threads.

    That's one consideration.
     
  11. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Did you know that the UK has no forced mandated vaccinations? We allow people out in public without them, and they can enrol in schools without proof of having them. We have actually done alright without making them mandatory. It’s achieved by the carrot of “you won’t get sick” rather than the stick of ostracisation.
    That said, there are of course arguments for enforcing it in legislation, including the financial benefit of the cost of the vaccine being far cheaper than the cost of treating the disease should it ever arise.

    There is certainly a concern that there is a growing number of unvaccinated people in the UK. It is due, it seems, to complacency. No serious outbreak of a disease for a long time means people don’t see the need to get vaccinated (health scares of the side effects of the vaccinations also don’t help) but the only reason we have no serious outbreak is because of the vaccinations. I can imagine it will take one serious outbreak, either in the UK or Europe, to raise the question in our Parliament and for legislation to be put on the books.

    Personally I think people should be vaccinated, but I have no issue in it not being mandatory. At the moment.

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  12. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    The problem is that for herd immunity to be effective you need a very high proportion of the population to be vaccinated - like 95%+. If you don't make it mandatory, and that percentage dips, then some people in the community will suffer and perhaps die from what is a preventable disease. There's a small tolerance for the 5% or so who are "freeloaders" and who benefit from the vigilance of the remaining 95%. But when more than that 5% decide to roll the dice and rely on the immunity of the rest, whether it be due to complacency or misguided ideological objection, then there will be inevitable outbreaks of infectious disease. And the more freeloaders there are, the more serious the consequences of any outbreak for the society as a whole and its individual members.

    It's also worth bearing in mind that, for various reasons, it is likely that a certain percentage of the population are not able to be vaccinated. For example, it can be dangerous to vaccinate infants who are below a certain age. Given this, that 5% tolerance limit for general herd immunity cannot be made up solely of the complacent and the reckless. It is one thing to choose to endanger one's own life, but to also wilfully endanger the lives of innocent children (for example) is something else.

    Making vaccination mandatory - particularly for children to participate in child care centres, for instance - is prudent public policy. Why should a government tolerate some recalcitrant parents knowingly putting their own and other people's kids in danger?
     
  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    16,272
    That's great. Unfortunately, here in the US, many parents refuse vaccinations because they believe that vaccines CAUSE disease. So we have two sticks instead of a carrot and a stick.
     
  14. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    3,820
    = UK culture
    = USA culture

    interesting looking at where the thread has gone to
    with your comment
    who gets vaccinations ?
    who gets to choose to be vaccinated or not ?
    who gets to choose to have an abortion ?
    who gets subjected to dangers of pregnancy ?

    children are the ones who get vaccinated, yet in opposition to the common USA moral position ... the children do not get to choose

    there is moral equity here

    personally i am pro children's rights, so making vaccinations mandatory is simple human rights.
    but those human rights are stolen and used for personal profit and power games by adults.

    it leaves me asking how far down the road has some cultures come from slavery ?

    is the average person incapable of having a moral debate to prove their moral position to define why children should be denied vaccinations ?
    equally why would a women be denied the right to choose to be pregnant or not ?

    "tough luck you don't get to choose" is a common message from the anti-abortionists and the alt-right presented from a position of privileged self entitlement sold as a victim.

    its getting a bit old for the 21st century

    The Schtick of the stick
    spare the schtick and give basic human rights to the child

    "children are not real people so they should not be given real human rights"
    "women are not men so they should not be given mens rights to control everything"
    ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2019
  15. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    is a person equal to a jury of their peers ?
    are their peers equal ?
    is equalness a peer ?

    why is a judge not equal to a peer ?

    who is forced to pay for medicaid private company profits ?

    should all health insurance be equal in price and product ?

    is all life equal ?
     
  16. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    29,272
    Not for most diseases - you may be thinking about measles, chicken pox, etc.

    Models indicate that an effective Ebola vaccine would gain herd immunity at less than 2/3 vaccination percentage - possibly as low as 1/3, for some strains - because it is so fragile and particular in transmission but so quickly and efficiently lethal. Polio herd immunity was gained at around 80%. Tetanus herd immunity is essentially zero regardless of vaccination rate.

    Meanwhile, many diseases can be controlled by herd immunity via high vaccination rates in a smaller subset of the population - a subset "herd". Diseases common in, and mostly spread by, children who also respond better to vaccination than adults - but more seriously afflicting the more rare elderly adults who catch them (and being elderly have poor vaccination response) - might be best controlled by high vaccination rates in children only. On the flip side of that one, herd immunity against whooping cough is most efficiently achieved by more intensive vaccination of old people - who spread the disease to children easily without getting very sick themselves, and respond well to vaccination - while ignoring very young children, who get very sick but don't spread the disease easily and respond poorly to vaccination.

    And STDs are a separate and complicated pile of vaccination complexities.

    Well employed vaccination strategies depend on the disease, and the human culture.

    And the vaccine. One of the subplots in the vaccination conflicts has been the quiet removal of mercury compounds from children's vaccines, which was long overdue - an unnecessary and serious risk, that persisted out of unexamined and overlooked inertia even as vaccines multiplied and became standard. Another is the replacement of live virus vaccines with various carefully engineered immunity triggers that cannot reproduce themselves - safer, likely better, more inspirational for research (anti cancer vaccines that trigger immune system attack on existing tumors came from that line) and quite possibly motivated in part by bad experience driven resistance to vaccines in general.
     
  17. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...erejiklian-whether-she-would-have-an-abortion




    Ben Fordham
    https://www.2gb.com/ben-fordham-fac...-reveals-confidential-government-information/


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    self appointed abortion inquisitor...

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    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  18. Capracus Valued Senior Member

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    Great minds.

     
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  19. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    should the state be responsible for its citizens ?

    yes = pro choice(not anti abortion) [pro choice must force by law and money and food, shelter, education & housing of the citizen by the state, AS A LAW to enforce the right of the citizen and the citizens adherance to the law] simple ? why is that not simple for the anti-abortionists ?
    no = anarchy
    notice how many self acclaimed libertarians are in fact anarchists
     
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    11,767
    When a member of a tribe committed a crime, the entire village was held responsible until the culprit was punished.
    http://www.actforlibraries.org/society-should-share-the-responsibility-of-crime-prevention/
     
  21. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    3,820
    unless your alt-right fake libertarian and rich

    then you make laws to subjugate and punish the poor while you live above it with wealth and call it "capitalism" or a cult
     

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