Meat is not as economically wastefull as you think. They eat alot of the things we cant. Such as straw, grass, and some indeble grains since we also lack the digestive system they do. Meat also packs a much bigger energy punch than any other food. If I'm not mistaken, they give field troops things like beef jerky if they ever get lost or captured, just because it's full of yummy calories. We also can't eat raw meat simply because it's too difficult for our stomachs to digest. The hydrogen bonds inside the cells are much more difficult to break down, and since we lack the enzyme, our ancestors discovered the miracle of fire to break some of these bond before we eat the meat. There are complex proteins and various materials in their that many people don't EXACTLY need. Some people need these components as Tyler pointed out in the beginning of the thread. Although it's true that most people can live what we percieve to be perfectly healthy lives without them, they aren't perfect. MEat brings alot of things to you that vegetables just cannot. ANd if taken in moderation, any doctor/dietician will tell you that this meat gives your cells a healthy boost. The problem I have with these vegans is that they don't eat meat not because they want to live healthier lives, but because they don't wan't to feel responsible for the death of an animal (even though it's perfectly natural). I consider that to be stupid. We need some meat to live healthier lives.
The reasons why I feel eating meat is wrong is because the animals suffer so much from this industrialized production of meat that are supposed to be their lives. It is cruel, and unecessary. There is so much other food to buy in the stores now, that provides exactly as much nutrition as meat does. Meat is for those who can't eat other food for medical reasons, or for people that live in very cold areas where growing vegetables, rice and fruits can't be done and supermarkets aren't around. And besides, if you eat an apple you will recycle it , by pooping out the seeds so a new appletree can grow in its place. If you eat a cow, a new cow will not grow up in its place.
Bebelina, Animals suffer in some places, others they don't. There are strict laws and regulations around the sluaghtering of animals. This is to make sure that the animals don't suffer, and to ensure that no cruelty takes place. Some places take special measure to ensure that death is instantaneous. Kosher meat, for example, cannot be deemed kosher if the animal suffered during the slaughtering process. We humans have been killing animals for years. Animals have been killing other Animals for a much longer period of time. And I doubt any of that is going to change until we develop a feasable way to manufacture animal tissues without animals. In this world, nothing comes for free. If you want to live a healthy life, then you should include some meat. Nobody cares if you do or you don't. And BTW, you cant get all of the same things in vegetables fruits and grains that you can in meat.
I'm sorry to say that you are wrong there Elbaz. Animals suffer in 99% of the places they are being kept for meat production. In France for example, they regularly beat the animals so that the meat will be more tender. We now have soy products that have as much protein as meat, and not to mention the new quorn, made of mushrooms, both tastes just like meat too. There is absolutely nothing that says that you have to eat meat to be healthy, any vegetarian can insure you it's the other way around. And all the meat manufacturers will continue to tell lies that are necessary to assure their economy. Just because humans "always" has done something in a particular way , doean't mean that we have to continue to do so, if that was the case, we would still live in caves.
I have trouble eating chicken wings. Every time I eat wings, I always think about two wings equal one life. My conscience is making me uncomfortable.
You beat the animals to make the meat more tender??? That's crazy. That kind of stuff never happens to kosher meat. I can safely say that my animals weren't beaten before I've eaten. If you beat live animals you should be sent to jail. You should be completely ashamed of yourself. Period. There are no exceptions. I'm surprised that kind of thing still happens nowadays. And I'd like you to prove that these animals suffer in 99% of the places they are kept. Rules and regulations are there for a reason, to ensure that less than 0.00001% of slaugherterhouses ever do any inhumane acts to animals (aside from killing them -- Painlessly m.Y. ). It doesn't matter how much protein you have in those products. It means nothing since replicating the actual molecules is extremely difficult. I'd like you to prove that you can replilcate organic molecules through non-organic means (easily). It's not feasible in the least. Meat harbours other special components that you can't manufacture and that's what I've been alluding to. And BTW, Soy products DO NOT taste good. I've never tasted a fake meat product that I wouldn't be able to seperate from an actual meat product. Sure, it says it on the labels that garbage tastes good when it doesn't. I've tasted it. I'd know. ANd if this "Quorn" really is so good, then why isn't it on grocery shelves here?? A: People prefer actual meat. It's generally cheaper, tastier, and offers you a health kick that most soyabeans can't. How much biology have you learn't? I know for a fact that meat has special proteins, amino acids and a whole load of other excesively lettered materials that vegetables just don't have. It's a fact that meat taken in moderation is a healthy part of any human diet. We've evolved that way. BTW, I don't trust any corporation that tries to sell me on 'facts'. Humans used caves as a feasable form of shelter. We still use shelter don't we?? Did we evolve out of the need for shelter? Human ancestors called their caves homes, we call our houses/apartments/condos/boxes homes as well.....don't we? Don't they both serve the exact same purpose of shelter? Therefore we haven't out-evolved the need for shelter as you claim. In contrast, humans have evolved a need for these excessively lettered components of our diets since those components were richly available for the duration of human evolution. Becuase of this FACT, that they were richly available when humans needed nourishment for almost the entire majority of our evolution, means that our bodies our optimized based on the diet of these ancestors which consequently included meat. This is what we call an evolutionary process. Understand? You don't have to continue to work meat into your diet if you don't want to. That only means that your human (hopefully Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ) bodies' performance will not be optimal. Same as filling up a tank of Gas. Premium is the best, but many choose unleaded. Oh, and just to assert my real position, I think the inhumane treatment of animals is wrong. Giving up meat because of it isn't a productive thing, though. Boycotting the meat companies is. They'll eventually adopt a much more human form of slaughter. Buying Kosher products is also a good idea if you don't like normal meat. Our kosher meat has basically been given what I like to call it's own personal funeral. So you see, I don't care what anybody does. What people do has little bearing on what I do (usually). I'm just arguing that meat optimizes your lifestyle. It's a scientific fact. If a person doesn't wish to live an optimal way, it's none of my business. I still respect them as much as anybody.
me Some proofies about why I believe meat completely deteriorates and damages every cell in the body. International Union of Sciences reports that various countries have various RDAs (recommended daily allowances) for protein. Some as low as 40 grams, and some as high as 110 grams for adult males. The current RDA in the U.S. is 58-63 grams of protein per day for adult males. RDA is determined by the National Academy of Sciences (NAS). According to NAS’s actual literature, the findings claimed that adult males really only need around 30 grams. In other words, NAS says only 30 grams r required, yet they recommend 58-63. Why would they do such a thing?? According to the explanation on the official RDA chart: “The protein RDA is high in order to cover most person's needs.” THAT IS WHAT THEY SAY, BUT ITS COMPLETELY ILLOGICAL because they already found out that MOST PERSON’S only need around 30 grams for adult males, and less for everybody else. So why would they REALLY do such a thing? In actuality, the NAS said that in the past, the previous RDA for protein in an adult male was around 80 grams. After their findings, they decided 2 lower the RDA to 30 grams. That’s when the public started complaining. So they came up with 58-63 to appease the public. But who in the public would complain about this? Who in the public would even think 2 know that the NAS was going 2 lower it in the first place? Regular people u see on the street? No! it came from large conglomerates who make their living selling meats and other high-protein products. [[In fact, these conglomerates are best known for very expensive marketing schemes (complete schemes!) making you believe that milk, meat, and protein has all these great effects. Those Got Milk commercials r ingenious. They took a product (milk), that totally deteriorates and does serious damage 2 your body, and made it look like it would have the complete opposite effect from what it really does. They don’t show a more realistic picture of a completely ugly and deteriorated person that has been drinking milk all his life. They show beautiful healthy men and women with a nice sexy bodies. I wish I could do a TRUTH commercial like the cigarettes, but instead about milk. (let me know if u want more proof about the harmful effects of milk)]] more about meat: does meat give strong bones and muscles? lots of energy and endurance? Absolutely not! Too much protein in the diet: Leads to dehydration Provides the body with excess nitrogen that causes fatigue Increases fat intake and lower cholesterol intake Overworks the liver, kidneys, and the urinary tract Increases risk of gout How is energy created in the body? Glycogen converts adenosine triphosphate 2 adenosine diphosphate, and bak 2 adenosine triphosphate again. This turns on one of the 3 phosphates within the adenosine triphosphate. This process produces bursts of energy that move our entire bodies every second of the day. GLUCOS from fruits and vegetables is the first that the body uses for energy Then FIBER Then FAT The last is PROTEIN Protein doesn’t increase muscle strength either The extra protein that is added to the diet will be stored as fat. The Way to Build Muscles: Exercise and strength train with weights Have a diet high in cholesterol so you can spare the protein to help build muscle “The only time a high protein diet is safe is during time of healing from an injury or surgery or when an individual has a low caloric diet. Studies show that taking amino acids supplements do not work. They are expensive and unpalatable. They may even cause gastrointestinal upset. Amino acid supplements have little value to the athlete.” -NSSN OTHERWISE, humans get by with whatever protein is available for them. What about the proteins that cant b found in certain vegetables? According 2 Dr. Mark Hegstead, humans can get by with whatever protein is available 2 them. Worrying so much about ur protein intake makes absolutely no sense. I hav lots more proofies 4 everybody, but I don’t have time. I don’t even have time 2 get started on the effects of uric acid (cellular shit). Let me know if u want 2 know more.
YOu see, that's why you have to eat different varieties of food in MODERATION. Like I said, too much of anything can be bad. Same for vegetables. But meat is still a part of a balanced diet. You do require some meat. To be quite honest, I don't eat very much meat. Usually, I'll eat grains and vegetables. And I drink about a cup of milk every 4 weeks. Humans weren't meant to drink milk, BTW. Milks' a modern thing. You need a variety of things. And that'll obviously vary based on the frame of time. The best method is to eat food according to your instincts. That's what cravings are for. Keep in mind, though, that cravings can be decieving. If your instincts make you feel as though you're lacking salt, you'll crave more salt. Lacking vegetables or meat, same thing. I'll be honest though, the lifestyles of modern humans have changed drastically. That basically means our diets should too. We might not require the exact same composition of nourishment we did 10 000 years ago. Although we still need all of the components, as our bodies are designed to function optimally based on those various components.
Here is a list of facts stripped from Diet For a New America... http://home.earthlink.net/~tilleyrw/realities_90s.html and http://users.tellurian.net//atrain/environment/real.html In order to understand fully and where they come from you need to read the book. These figures are based on legitimate scientific studies that are cited in the book. This is scientific as it probably gets. I would like to see facts that say thing otherwise. I have seen lists of facts in how they vary since when it was published 1987, but changes were subtle. I am not one to accept statistics blindly myself, but considering the great body of them and where the studies come from, and the support presented in the book, I think it makes a very very good case against meat production and consumption. Elbaz, name one specific thing found in meat that is needed for human production and not found in another source of food.
Elbaz...Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! what are you talking about, I said in France, didn't? In case you don't know, France is a country located in Europe from where many other countries import their meat from. And it's easy for you to find proof of this anywhere, just search for it on the net. Many filmes that are shown to kids here in Sweden show how badly animals are treated in the meat industry. The are clipping off the chickens beaks while they are still alive for another example. Yes, there are rules and regulations, but hardly anybody in the meat industry follows them, for economical reasons. They don't value the life of animals at all. Kosher, all I have heard about that, is that it is a jewish religious preparation of food, and that you kill the animals by slowly letting them die of bloodloss. That is just what I have heard, is that the case? We don't need meat to survive, we are not predators, we are primates. Who do occasionally eat meat, but not very often. So it doesn't have any nutritional importance, we just like the taste and the occasional hunt. But some of us have evolved from the ape stadium, and some of us may not have...Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! The "facts" that you have that sais that meat is needed for an optimal lifestyle, are probably old and outdated already, or a sponored by Mac Donalds new investigation.
vitamin B12, thats about it. ok I have so much to say, I am a vegan. I'm kind of hurt by Joeman words, although he retracted them to some extent. Whats with the constant prejudice of groups that comes out ur keyboard??? anyways, you can think what you want about VEGANS. but i dont judge any meat eaters, all that every happens is I GET JUDGED. people think im a freak, my best friends always poke fun at me.. the list goes on and on. btw im not an anarchists, and i dont know any vegan anarchists, i dont know where you got that from? but you know what, i am certain that it is not right to eat meat if one has a choice. Its a living breathing feeling sentient being, an ANIMAL just like you and I, and you greedily slaughter it because you think it TASTES good?!? if it was me or the cow (or whatever) then of course I'm going to choose the cow to die, but why do that if i live a healthier happier life without eating the cow. I'm also very into weight lifting. i get PLENTY of protein from a wide variety of sources, I have a very low fat percentage, and I have a decent amount of muscle tone (not at all braggin its not like im a huge stud, just saying its possible to do this when one is a vegan). All the studies i have ever seen go on and on about the health aspects of a veggie (vegan) diet. from super lowered cancer risks, to almost zero chance of heart disease. meat, red meat especially, is very bad for you, increases your risk of cancer astronmically (saw in a high level college bio book that it was increased by 250% compared to non meat eaters). I dunno, i just dont think you can argue against the huge mass of knowledge saying vegetarians are much healthier people. the only time i get really pissed at meat eaters is when they are huge, fat and slovenly, and they are in line at some fast food restraunt ordering a huge double layered hambuger...you want to kill urself fine, but at least spare the god damn cow. haha.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
one last thing, i saw on discovery channel or something that our closest living relatives are effectively vegetarians (monkeys or some type of monkey). This may or may not mean anything to you...
Well my views are somewhat traditional. Millions of years humans have ate meat. Maybe and I think it will in the future be replaced by a synthetic meat where you grow already ready slices of "beef". Would you consider such a synthisised meat to be bad to eat out of moral aspects? As for health , I do not know about the red meet, because there is none where I live. In my case I couldn't live without meat (low fat, from the country), because I have very energy consuming martial arts trainings and I output so much energy that I couldn't even compensate it with only vegitables... Please correct me if I'm wrong in this. I've never studied vegetables but from my experience I get more energy from meat. The only thing which gives more energy is chocolate, but it's bad for my health to consume it in large quantities.
well most people who become vegetarian notice an immediate BOOST in energy (also in the cleanliness of their bowels and the oderless nature of it Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ) . You're right in the aspect that meat has more calories per pounds, but its like what you said about chocolate, its just not good for you (dont disagree with that unless you can show me serious medical studies saying otherwise, please). besides, amazingly enough theres a LOT OF THINGS IN THE WORLD TO EAT, even if you only eat plant sources. people ask me what do i eat, and im just shocked, seriously, its not any harder to eat as a vegan than as a meat eater, you just have to open your eyes a little. Sometimes its hard if your on vacation, because very few restraunts cater to vegans (thank god for the BK veggie, and subway). also, like i said previously, im somewhat of a jock. played 4 varsity sports in highschool, and enjoy a very athletic life in college as well. I have NO adverse effects from my diet, only good effects...as far as ive been able to see. I'm not gonna say that white meat or fish in low quantities isnt bad for you, it seems ok in my mind if youre not eating for everymeal, but I believe its healthier to be vegan, and its also morally right. and as for the argument that humans have eaten meat throughout history...so what? we've also had wars throughout history, are wars still a good thing? plus, they had to do it out of necessity, their farming practices were hardly good enough to sustain them completely. and like i said earlier, if i HAD TO CHOOSE, if it was my life or a dogs , id eat the dog. my last point will be, if you look at the global effects from animal farms, it is one of THE biggest polutants. from the cows methan, hehehe, to the HUGE amount of waste the animals produce, to the amount of land required for hearding, it is MUCH worse for the environment than farming. heres some quick searches i did http://www.ivu.org/oxveg/Talks/animalfarmenv.html http://www.factoryfarming.com/gallery/chicks01.htm that pic is one thing that made me become a veggie. If you think, well that cant be standard practice, just think about it for a second. we live in capitalsm (bottom line rules right?), well male chics at an EGG farm have zero worth (and dont say they could sell them, cause hte poultry farms genetically raise their chickens to have bigger breasts and what not...you know so they cant movePlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! not to mention the beak seerings, the forced molting, etc etc...aniimal farming industry is certainly an unneccesary evil).
Here's something from the link I posted about, Diet for a New America. It's old (1987) but should be relevant. Well all of these people didn't need meat to win such things as world records; I'm sure it requires a lot of energy for this type of training.
B12 is found in eggs and dairy products, but for vegans like yourself, there seems to be no reliable "natural" sources, although you can get B12 fortified foods.
well, I still enjoy eating meat- fish and mamals.... I can't eat puoltry(sp) ..really...duno why...I get sick from any kind of bird meet and as for morals....as banshee once said---I'm evilPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! one my friend is strict vegetarion (hmm sorry- vegan), but it is from moral princips..he is a pacifist and has somehow connected that to meat eating... I'm not a pacifistPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
